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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:35:12 PM
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| I have a Question. Why do many people consider AmTran and Ward Volunteer's as Junk? Is their a Physical or Mechanical Reason behind this myth. |
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Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:36:04 PM
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Hopefully I don't cause a riot!
Wards and AmTrans cost the cheapest out of all the major manufacturers, so when you cut the cost, quality is sometimes lost.
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Edited by - Tatum on 01/18/2011 9:37:34 PM |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3528 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:37:03 PM
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| Probably because they are cheap and they are lowest bid. They are also known for rust. |
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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:37:37 PM
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| Tatum, do you know why people consider AmTran and Ward Volunteer's being junk? |
Answering Electrical Problems One at a Time. |
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Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:38:36 PM
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| No, but I don't know anyone who ranks them on the top of the others. |
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SteveCof00
Senior Member
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:41:10 PM
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The last AmTran Volunteer was made in 1996; the last Ward Volunteer was made in 1992. Even if they were they the best buses ever made (maybe, maybe not...I'm not sure we need a flame war to discuss that), 1996 was FIFTEEN years ago; 1992 was NINETEEN years ago.
Eventually, vehicles reach the end of their life cycle, requiring more upkeep towards the end. The same goes for cars, trucks, and SUVs along with commercial trucks.
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http://schoolbusweb.proboards.com/ |
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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:41:30 PM
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| I consider AmTran and Ward Volunteer's the best buses ever built. Why don't Arrow, your RP use AmTran's and Wards? |
Answering Electrical Problems One at a Time. |
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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:44:12 PM
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| Actually Steve, the last AmTran Volunteer ever was made in 1997. |
Answering Electrical Problems One at a Time. |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3528 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:45:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 94AmTranVolunteer
Actually Steve, the last AmTran Volunteer ever was made in 1997.
I believe '96 was the cutoff year, however some of the latter were titled as '97. |
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Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:45:19 PM
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| Terry, there's no need to double post. Simply edit the previous post instead of creating a new one. |
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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:46:45 PM
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| Tatum. I am sorry I did not abide by your rules. |
Answering Electrical Problems One at a Time. |
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Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:47:58 PM
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| Oh no, that's just a rule that you laid down a while back. I just thought you'd follow your own rule, but I guess not. |
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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:58:36 PM
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| Also. Alfredo Ramozes owned Three Carpenter R.E. Cavalier's and Damaged them. On one, he pushed into a River. Another, he lit on fire, and the last he popped the tires and cut into pieces. All three buses had Illegal Foregin Tires that were manufactured in China and were not safe. |
Answering Electrical Problems One at a Time. |
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Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 10:01:09 PM
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| And you wonder why no one takes you seriously, and always cut down your hopes and dreams? |
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94AmTranVolunteer
Advanced Member
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 10:05:49 PM
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| Tatum, I follow my rules and other people's rules as well. |
Answering Electrical Problems One at a Time. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 06:43:37 AM
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| I have seen better RVs than an AmTran. ...and I hate RVs. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 08:21:20 AM
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I have had International reps tell me that when they bought Ward each assembly line station had a big hammer, if the part didnt fit, they made it fit.
We bought Wards new in 82,84,85 & Amtran in 93. Each year was better than the prior but the 80s versions especially were crudely designed and assembled with poor driver visibility.
IMO, in that era, Bluebird and Thomas were miles ahead of Ward and Carpenter in design, fit and finish. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 09:20:11 AM
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| BB still is IMO. |
Bryan |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3528 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 09:23:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
BB still is IMO.
I don't know about the mechanics of Blue Birds, but I sure know that the Birds are always the first to start fading in the fleet! |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 11:06:15 AM
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| Paint is a little problem to fix (from the factory) compaired to the problems people have been having with IC latly. I guess those things will look good sitting on the side of the road though. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 11:24:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Paint is a little problem to fix (from the factory) compaired to the problems people have been having with IC latly. I guess those things will look good sitting on the side of the road though.
And once again your newest Bluebird is a what model year ????? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 01/19/2011 11:25:05 AM |
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ICrider
Senior Member
United States
127 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 12:08:25 PM
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| Our 2 year old IC CEs haven't had any mechnical issues. At all. Which is surprising, considering we use First Student. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4559 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 12:32:48 PM
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Ward gave what would be AmTran, International, IC a bad name. Like the others have said, Ward was just a forced-fit, low bid body.
I personally think that the seats used up til 94 made a lot of enemies of techs who have better things to do than replace the blown-out foam for the 56,000th time. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 2:14:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
BB still is IMO.
I don't know about the mechanics of Blue Birds, but I sure know that the Birds are always the first to start fading in the fleet!
Yep, this is true. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 2:48:04 PM
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I have dealt with Wayne, Superior, Ward, Bluebird, Thomas, (no Carpenters) and IC.
Navistar bought out Ward and has integrated the body with the chassis which is not a bad idea, but like the Freightliner/Thomas marriage, there still are some growing pains.
The real thing driving the bus(pardon the pun) is the bid competition. It dismays me to see how cheap these bus bodies and chassis have become to compete with the State's minumim requirements.
In my opinion, they're all junk. Make the best of it you can. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 4:01:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Paint is a little problem to fix (from the factory) compaired to the problems people have been having with IC latly. I guess those things will look good sitting on the side of the road though.
And once again your newest Bluebird is a what model year ?????
ORIG, I know we've been through this before but I have a set of 5 year old ICs and a set of less than one year old ICs. I also have a single BB Vision that's a 07 (pre-07 emissions). It seems to me that this would be a good comparison, maybe not. I like my IC dealer but I like my BB dealer better they just do lots more to get my business. I was beside myself when we bought these last ICs and I hope I don't do something drastic if we buy more. Of course I'm not sure we will even be able to purchase buses for quite some time because I live in Illinois. I think you are a great addition to this site so I am not trying to make you mad or give you a hard time, this is just the way I feel. Hope this clears some things up. |
Bryan |
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 4:30:10 PM
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The build quality of the front of the bus (door assemblies, dashboard, windshield seals, bulkhead, etc.) is superior in TC2000s of all age ('91, '92, '97, '00, '01, and '02 that we have) than our 6 '01 AmTran FEs from my observations. And the AmTrans are showing more rust and fading than the TCs.
The AmTrans also have a very bouncy, nauseating front suspension system, at least compared to the TCs. We have a driver who drives an '05 CE200 and is afraid of type Ds because of a head-on collision. If his bus is out, he'll only use a TC. He's never been in an AmTran FE. He probably feels safer in the TC due to it being more solid overall.
The '04 CE200 we have is the worst-built bus I've ever been in, especially at the front. Everything shaking visibly, rattling, squeaking. The Futura CEs are a huge improvement over this, especially the dashboard. I think that the rigidity of the interior roof panels and walls in the Futura CE was sacrificed, but overall I think everything is better about the Futuras.
We have a '97 TC that looks like new from the outside, while the AmTran FEs are rusting, losing warning light seals, and fading. We also had a 1995 Thomas Minotour and its paint was flawless except for some thin, vertical lines of rust directly under the light lenses. The newer Thomases ('02, '04) seem to be faring somewhat better than the AmTrans. The 2004 CE200 has faded noticeably. The '05 CE200s are pretty good for now.
Only the '01 TC is fading, and but at least it's a consistent, 360-degree fading, unlike the AmTrans (random panels all around) and the Thomases I mentioned, which have some fading on the roofs but are OK otherwise. |
Edited by - 08 Thomas EF on 01/19/2011 4:36:34 PM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 04:26:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Paint is a little problem to fix (from the factory) compaired to the problems people have been having with IC latly. I guess those things will look good sitting on the side of the road though.
And once again your newest Bluebird is a what model year ?????
ORIG, I know we've been through this before but I have a set of 5 year old ICs and a set of less than one year old ICs. I also have a single BB Vision that's a 07 (pre-07 emissions). It seems to me that this would be a good comparison, maybe not. I like my IC dealer but I like my BB dealer better they just do lots more to get my business. I was beside myself when we bought these last ICs and I hope I don't do something drastic if we buy more. Of course I'm not sure we will even be able to purchase buses for quite some time because I live in Illinois. I think you are a great addition to this site so I am not trying to make you mad or give you a hard time, this is just the way I feel. Hope this clears some things up.
Oh, I'm sure Bluebird hasnt changed vendors, outsourced, reduced standard equipment, or cheapened things up in the last 4 or 5 years. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 06:31:19 AM
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Not sure, but if these companies are smart they are going to have to bring their quality up. Before you tell me they have to do that it to stay competitive, might I remind you about Detroit in the seventies. To put it another way, see this: http://stnonline.com/home/top-stories/2790-starcraft-type-c
If the school bus manufacturers don't straighten up we are going to have another 1980s, i.e. Hino (think Toyota in Detroit) will move in and take up the slack.
Anyway, all I know is these guys are hard headed anyway (management in these companies)! So we are probably not going to get a good bus until someone like Hino moves in and pushes. Of course that brings in another set of problems (as I see it). That being if the labor price wasn't so high in the USA we could build those good cars, trucks, and buses here (not to mention toys, TVs, etc.). Then you have the whole thing about the worker getting paid enough to live here in the USA. And we go round and round! Suffice to say all the problems we are seeing in our circle are the same problems that are being discussed nationwide. I say back off of regulations and let FREEDOM RING!!! Now I'm rambling so I'll get off my soap box.
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Bryan |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 08:23:56 AM
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Probably because when you shake on a little salt, this is what you end up with:
That was the back of my first bus when I first bought it. There were actual holes rusted right through that door (which I had to replace) and the fumes would come right in the bus. That bus was a '91, and that photo was taken in '02. Should an 11 year old bus look like that? I think not. According to the maintenance records, the stepwell was so badly rotted by 1996 that it needed reinforcement in order to pass inspection. That was also falling apart again by the time I got it. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 09:08:51 AM
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| That's crazy! I have never seen anything like that! Not that much salt in southern Illinois. What year did Ward get out of the business? |
Bryan |
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matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 10:16:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Not sure, but if these companies are smart they are going to have to bring their quality up. Before you tell me they have to do that it to stay competitive, might I remind you about Detroit in the seventies. To put it another way, see this: http://stnonline.com/home/top-stories/2790-starcraft-type-c
If the school bus manufacturers don't straighten up we are going to have another 1980s, i.e. Hino (think Toyota in Detroit) will move in and take up the slack.
Anyway, all I know is these guys are hard headed anyway (management in these companies)! So we are probably not going to get a good bus until someone like Hino moves in and pushes. Of course that brings in another set of problems (as I see it). That being if the labor price wasn't so high in the USA we could build those good cars, trucks, and buses here (not to mention toys, TVs, etc.). Then you have the whole thing about the worker getting paid enough to live here in the USA. And we go round and round! Suffice to say all the problems we are seeing in our circle are the same problems that are being discussed nationwide. I say back off of regulations and let FREEDOM RING!!! Now I'm rambling so I'll get off my soap box.
Well, IMO, I would say that if the top executive A******* would take a pay cut, they could afford to pay their workers a decent wage. They make millions off the hard work of of line workers. Even when their companies lose money, they still make their HUGE salaries.
Now, back to when you say that we should back off the regulations, when that happens, the top executives just make more money. They may never touch one of these vehicles, but they reap the benefits. They'll whine about company profits, but the truth is they are only concerned with filling their own pockets; they still get paid. Cutting expenses and cutting jobs isn't an issue, as long as they keep making their salaries. How much wealth does one person need to be satisfied? |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
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NWCROWN
Advanced Member
USA
461 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 11:03:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BBInt.10
Probably because when you shake on a little salt, this is what you end up with:
That was the back of my first bus when I first bought it. There were actual holes rusted right through that door (which I had to replace) and the fumes would come right in the bus. That bus was a '91, and that photo was taken in '02. Should an 11 year old bus look like that? I think not. According to the maintenance records, the stepwell was so badly rotted by 1996 that it needed reinforcement in order to pass inspection. That was also falling apart again by the time I got it.
One nearby district recently got rid of their 1985 Ward/International conventionals. They didn't even look close to that bad, but we don't have very harsh winters here either. Worth noting though is that particular district has only purchased Thomas and Blue Bird since 1988. |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 11:35:04 AM
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| The last load of 79-85 junkers 20 or so we sold for scrap we had two Wards and one Carpenter rusted like that. I wish that I would have hung on to the BB bodies, they were rust free but caulky. On the Thomas it was mainly around the wheel wells started. We sold 5 AmTrans stub noses down south for cheap. They were rust buckets and the seats were shot but ran like a top. I guess we will see in the future which POS rusts out faster. What about those Hino? That's gonna be a thing to see. I hope we get one so I can dissect it. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 11:37:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by matts4290
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Not sure, but if these companies are smart they are going to have to bring their quality up. Before you tell me they have to do that it to stay competitive, might I remind you about Detroit in the seventies. To put it another way, see this: http://stnonline.com/home/top-stories/2790-starcraft-type-c
If the school bus manufacturers don't straighten up we are going to have another 1980s, i.e. Hino (think Toyota in Detroit) will move in and take up the slack.
Anyway, all I know is these guys are hard headed anyway (management in these companies)! So we are probably not going to get a good bus until someone like Hino moves in and pushes. Of course that brings in another set of problems (as I see it). That being if the labor price wasn't so high in the USA we could build those good cars, trucks, and buses here (not to mention toys, TVs, etc.). Then you have the whole thing about the worker getting paid enough to live here in the USA. And we go round and round! Suffice to say all the problems we are seeing in our circle are the same problems that are being discussed nationwide. I say back off of regulations and let FREEDOM RING!!! Now I'm rambling so I'll get off my soap box.
Well, IMO, I would say that if the top executive A******* would take a pay cut, they could afford to pay their workers a decent wage. They make millions off the hard work of of line workers. Even when their companies lose money, they still make their HUGE salaries.
Now, back to when you say that we should back off the regulations, when that happens, the top executives just make more money. They may never touch one of these vehicles, but they reap the benefits. They'll whine about company profits, but the truth is they are only concerned with filling their own pockets; they still get paid. Cutting expenses and cutting jobs isn't an issue, as long as they keep making their salaries. How much wealth does one person need to be satisfied?
Sales takes their cut of the profit, and the end user doesn't even get any lubricant! |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
Edited by - Wolf0r on 01/20/2011 11:38:37 AM |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4559 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 12:08:54 PM
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We had that 1982 Ward Vanguard thing. It ran for 12 years. Body was in decent shape when it left, but then again being what it was it never saw the type of use that a regular bus would have. The thing that I remember most about it was how half-assed the warning light flasher was installed. Walk in the door, look to your right, there it was...the Baader Brown flasher screwed to the floor in plain sight with the rats nest of wires running to it!
A nearby school had two 1983 IH/Wards, one went away in the mid 90s due to it's nearly non-existant body, the other hung around til around 2002. Steel bars protruding from the sides of every seat foam and a floor so rotten you could kick holes in it. Good times. |
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Topic |
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Why do People Consider AmTran and Ward Buses Junk?
