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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 05:34:06 AM
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| I know i've read about other schools having fuel dilution in oil on 08 or newer IC's but was wondering if they had any experiences with getting warranty to find problem. I had one of the 08's with the Maxforce DT come in the other day with about 2 inches extra oil in it of course the driver hadn't noticed it was gaining but anyway, bus was sent to dealer as still under warranty. they did the dye test to ck for leaks none found. then yesterday i get a call from dealer although he is still trying to get somewhere with IH he tells me that warranty dept wants them to release bus back to customer to monitor every 100 hours and keep track of level in inches as (and i quote) dipstick is not a precision tool. I had taken an oil sample from bus prior to sending to dealer even though you could smell the fuel in it. the test came back positive for fuel at about 14% a copy of this was faxed to dealer and was forwarded to warranty. the warr rep my dealer is working with also said that 1 inch of extra oil growth over oil life is to be expected. this one already exceeds this, i wonder how much fuel IH considers to much in oil when the engine spins a bearing? needles to say my dealer rep and myself were not very happy about this response. |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 05:52:28 AM
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| We have 5 08 busses 2 are oil builders 3 are hard start no start and run terrible. Do you have fleet isis? If you do look at the warranty history on this vin 8B633633 For the first 2 years IC said we were the only ones having oil building issues on 08 busses if you get anywhere with your bus please post cause I think if they change another fuel pump I think I will throw it at someone. |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 07:42:10 AM
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| ya thats quite an impressive warranty history alot of the same parts. also funny as i have heard the same about being the only one with problem buses. will definitely post if gets resolved as of yet is still up in the air. I had a mechanic in the southern part of MI tell me his 08"s ran terrible surging/hunting, smoking etc. after Midwest transit changed all fuel injectors that the buses ran excellent. don't know if was covered in warr or they paid to have done. |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 07:52:50 AM
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| Been down that road after they change all 8 injectors problem comes back. Also one thing that crops up about once a year is the intake sensor the tip gets melted off... |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 08:05:23 AM
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| the engines i have are the inline 6's and the ones at other school were also, apparently you have the v-8's. I didn't look at that when on ISIS. but sounds like there is definitely a prob. i take it that yours are newer emission engs with DOC systems? |
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tigger2
Advanced Member
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:13:47 AM
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| At one time a complaint filed at 1-800-goihtruck got some results |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:28:55 AM
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| Yeah i have the 08 maxforce dt |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 03:05:39 AM
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| I've been through all the same things on my Maxxforce DT's as you guys. It very frustrating to hear the same old crap every time a case is sent in to tech support. On this issue, I have hollared and received help from corporate people and I know they have tried to develop solutions (but you wouldn't know it by the response you get from tech support). The problem (in my opinion) comes from the in cylinder dosing used to generate the heat for regeneration. The engines are programmed to inject fuel on the exhaust stroke which is pushed out into the exhaust system to create the temps necessary for regeneration (other manufacturers use downstream dosing which IH went to on their 2010 Maxxforce DT's). Other factors seem to cause this problem to get worse....clogged screens on the front of the DOC which seems to raise the exhaust pressure and increase the amount of fuel getting past the combustion chamber into the oil. Also, the cold weather seems to aggravate the problem. I thought we had ours fixed through the warmer months, but all of a sudden we noticed that even with new programming which had successfully improved the efficiency of the regens and increased the exhaust temps, our symptoms returned on at least 7 of 10 buses at the about same time (in Dec.). I have performed many oil analysis so far showing up to 20% fuel in oil, but none have shown any excessive wear. I would like to attend the training that they must give to IH personnel though....telling customers that no one else is experiencing this problem not only shows a lack of competence and dishonesty, but it implies that there is something wrong with the particular customer they are talking to! Not a smart approach! I remember so clearly them telling me the same thing when I was on the early end of the VT365 nightmare!!! Evidently, I must be the only one having problems with VT365 injectors!!! Yea Right!!! |
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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 10:36:18 AM
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| ok i really wanna know what is going wrong with all the VT365 injectors.. they say the Injector performance tester that they use, is supposed to show which injectors are "stition-ing" ( however u spell that!) anyways after 15 or so 29 passenger buses with the VT356 having only one or two injectors changed out...then sending it back a week later to have another 2 or three changed out...i called the dealer and THEIR TESTER IS NOW.....and i quote... "inconclusive"...they said they would test a bus 2-3 times and have different ones bad every time they test it! So basically they just guess and cross their fingers that they fixed the right ones! WOW sorry had to get that off my chest... its just horrible they run you in circles with a bucket of excuses! Anyways the fuel in the oil on just only 7 of our maxxforce DT's have had this repair so far.."ENGINE SMOKING ALL THE TIME & OVERFULL ON OIL. DEFECTIVE FUEL TRANSFER PUMP - LEAKING FUEL INTO LUBE. PER CASE #832741: PERFORM DIAGNOSTIC & DYE TEST, REPLACE THE PUMP & CHANGE OIL & FILTER." straight from the dealers mouth... only time will tell if this is the true fix or just a way to buy some time to find the real problem! Have any of you got this from them? |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 10:45:16 AM
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| It's something that they can say "could fix the problem" and it's pretty cheap and it makes sense and puts you off and the tech central guy is authorized to approve it, BUT in reality no pump that they have ever put on one of my Maxxforce DT's has EVER fixed the problem. I've been fighting the VT365 injector fight since late fall of 2005. The ONLY solution that there is is to replace the whole set after around 50,000 when they start acting up. They did it that way (replaced the whole set)for a while and came out and met with us as a fleet group and assured us they were replacing them in sets now but then changed corporate policy back to just changing them one at a time and they have been screwing us up ever since. (see post 2 above) Ironically, in Fall of 2005 when I started experiencing the trend of VT365 injector failures...my rep looked at me and said "I don't understand it...You're the only one having these problems!" |
Edited by - Bassman on 01/14/2011 10:55:09 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 11:36:25 AM
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I have a 170,000 mile 2004 VT365 with all the original injectors  |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 12:05:00 PM
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Well just to throw a curveball...ontop of the whole lift pump being the culprit, now they are saying its the injectors.. these are the MFDT'S and this one only has 43800miles on it...could this be a mirror image of the VT bonanza and their injectors? HAHA
ENGINE HAS EXHAUST SMOKE & OVERFULL ON OIL. DEFECTIVE #3 &4 INJECTORS. PER CASE #832002: CHECK EGR COOLERS = DRY, PERFORM DIAGNOSTICS, ADD DYE TO FUEL & R&I LIFT PUMP = OK, REPLACE #3 & 4 INJECTORS & CHANGE OIL & FILTER. ACE #3 & 4 INJECTORS & CHANGE OIL & FILTER.
Well as for u (Fastback)keep knockin' on wood because the bigger the fleet ya got the more you see! =P 370 buses and 35 box trucks in our fleet...we get to see alot over here =D
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80 grit
Active Member
United States
47 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 4:23:08 PM
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| We have 4 new maxxfarce DT's and all of them are making oil. One was 2 gallons over in 5,000 miles. The bus dealer came back with "after talking to the engine group, the rule of thumb is 1" over is ok". No mention of how many miles or a link to anything anything put out by the factory. Combine that with one going in for a vgt problem (2nd time) and bodies that leak terribly in the rain, it makes me believe that IC products are putrid junk! Stay away! |
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mr.bluebird
Active Member
United States
44 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 5:52:15 PM
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i would not buy a bus that has these problems .quote:
Originally posted by 80 grit
We have 4 new maxxfarce DT's and all of them are making oil. One was 2 gallons over in 5,000 miles. The bus dealer came back with "after talking to the engine group, the rule of thumb is 1" over is ok". No mention of how many miles or a link to anything anything put out by the factory. Combine that with one going in for a vgt problem (2nd time) and bodies that leak terribly in the rain, it makes me believe that IC products are putrid junk! Stay away!
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YOUR CHILDS SAFETY IS OUR BUSINESS!!! |
Edited by - mr.bluebird on 01/17/2011 6:42:18 PM |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 05:44:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
*it never pays to bash the competition*
I wouldn't call it a bash. I would call it an opinion such as "I wouldn't buy a car that is red". I'm not bashing red; I'm merely stating an opinion of how I feel about red cars.
As far as 80grit, I wouldn't go as far as he did. Calling them "putrid junk" is a little over the top, especially in this circle. However, I do understand his frustration.
In closing I will have to say I have been having better luck with my four IC products as of late (2-3 months). Cannot complain about my dealer, Mid-West, though. They have been there helping me every step of the way! Time will tell.
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Bryan |
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 08:06:46 AM
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Our 2010 CE300 came with a roof leak near the center of the bus (not the roof hatch, something with the paneling) and at least one loose seat cushion. My driver also complained that the parking brake was very hard to pull (and our mechanic agreed). A trip or two to the dealer (Dattco) and all was well. The only problems we've had with the bus since is what I infer to be regeneration failure (it was a cold week, as discussed in another thread) and some sort of flawed connection to the lower stop sign bulb that made the bulb cut out when the sign was open. That had started just before the regeneration problem (I think it went to the dealer for that), came back working for a day or two, quit, and now is working again.
Overall, this bus has been good to us and so has the dealer from the looks of it. Some aspects of the overall build quality aren't so great, but the bus gets the job done without hassle.
Our 2001 AmTran FEs used to be more reliable than the TCs (ranging from 1991 to 2002), but now the tables have turned; AmTrans are falling apart (not literally) and TCs seem to have given up trying to get themselves retired.  |
Edited by - 08 Thomas EF on 01/18/2011 08:10:19 AM |
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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 11:06:58 AM
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| As far as the IC's go with all of these problems within such a small amout of time and very short milage... What is the LEMON LAW on buses?! Im sure the VT's wouldnt have made it too far! The maxxforce DT's are pushing the envelope when it comes to the faults that happen earlier than anticipated! I'm not trying to trash talk IC or anything like that.. its just irritating to have more than 10 buses at a time go out for warranty work and dont come back for a long time because the dealer is disputing the reason why the bus failed in the first place...Do you see my take on this? |
Edited by - districtU46 on 01/18/2011 11:12:05 AM |
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mr.bluebird
Active Member
United States
44 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 12:51:46 PM
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i know middwesttransit is the best they do an amazing job
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YOUR CHILDS SAFETY IS OUR BUSINESS!!! |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 5:29:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
*it never pays to bash the competition*
I wouldn't call it a bash. I would call it an opinion such as "I wouldn't buy a car that is red". I'm not bashing red; I'm merely stating an opinion of how I feel about red cars.
As far as 80grit, I wouldn't go as far as he did. Calling them "putrid junk" is a little over the top, especially in this circle. However, I do understand his frustration.
In closing I will have to say I have been having better luck with my four IC products as of late (2-3 months). Cannot complain about my dealer, Mid-West, though. They have been there helping me every step of the way! Time will tell.
I wasn't pointing fingers, but i wish someone would have explained to me years ago how detrimental "bad mouthing" a certain brand is.... it made me look bad in the view of even some involved with Blue Bird... I think
I got into buses very young and Blue Bird was always my brand of choice, with the exception of about two years in there where I loved IC. I always was picking in a joking manner, but it is something I shouldn't have been doing.....
Back on topic now, sorry LOL |
Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1
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80 grit
Active Member
United States
47 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 6:36:14 PM
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| Please let me clarify that I do not represent any dealer,chassis,engine or body builder. I am a technician with a school district in southern California and have been for just over 20 years. In all of this time, I never have had this many problems with a new bus or such lousy service from a dealer.In addition to the ongoing problems listed before, these 4 new buses have also had the rear leveling valves fail, one of them twice.Or perhaps we should visit the plastic heater booster pump fiasco. All 4 have failed multiple times, some in as little as three weeks. The bus dealer suggested that we bypass them. An inexcusably lazy attitude in my opinion. This was fixed eventually by going to a metal pump, but why did we have to argue with the dealer? Sorry if I offend but it is what it is. IC products have taken a severe turn for the worse and if you have any, I sincerely hope that your dealer is better than ours. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 10:59:53 AM
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| I understand your anguish. I too have had many problem with IC products. The only difference between us is that I have a good dealer. I really feel sorry for them, they gave up a BB dealership to get IC. Good luck with your problems, maybe we will be lucky and they eventually work out the problems we are having. |
Bryan |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 1:05:34 PM
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| well just talked to the service manager at IH dealer on the bus that was making oil so far they have changed three injectors, ipr and icp resealed fuel rail, now IH is telling them to change hi-pressure lube pump all this started as crankcase was 2 inches over full on oil apparently after 3 injector change out, bus developed high speed surge dealer wants to put other three injectors in but so far IH has spent a lot more on other parts, go figure of course warranty time payed to dealer doesn't amount to much sometimes. hopefully when bus comes back it's not making oil |
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mastertech
Advanced Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 1:37:30 PM
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| On the leaking heater valve issue just thow them in garbage a solder on a fitting to run a hose . Dont replace them with more of the same junk. |
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sambrutay
Advanced Member
United States
271 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 08:48:28 AM
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| nothing like a $220 boost pump every year! |
Bruce |
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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IC_cruiser2804
Active Member
48 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2011 : 10:18:34 AM
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| This is crazy! We've never had issues like this! Only 1 EGR cooler (dealer took care of) and 1 booster pump |
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eicsbus
Senior Member
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2011 : 7:40:24 PM
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| booster pump problems, move pump to outside of air cleaner lid, away from turbo,,,will try to post pics soon as soon as i can figure out how to,,,has worked for us many times, and NO failures... we use 868242 booster pumps,,,$106.00 canadian |
I.C. NO FUTURE
formally ,,,,wright11 |
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Jim Kimmel
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2011 : 05:10:18 AM
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| You need to get with your IC dealer and have them reprogram your ECM/IDM in your unit. IC has a new engine program that will take care of this issue. |
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IC_cruiser2804
Active Member
48 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2011 : 4:30:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Kimmel
You need to get with your IC dealer and have them reprogram your ECM/IDM in your unit. IC has a new engine program that will take care of this issue.
Will this fix Bucking/surging in OD at low speeds?
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mastertech
Advanced Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 06:05:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eicsbus
booster pump problems, move pump to outside of air cleaner lid, away from turbo,,,will try to post pics soon as soon as i can figure out how to,,,has worked for us many times, and NO failures... we use 868242 booster pumps,,,$106.00 canadian
Isnt that the bergstrom plastic housing booster pump? I dont think I have ever seen one of those go a year before the leaking from the shaft seal ,housing or elbow fitting. We have replaced hundreds of those over years. Unfortunatly with the same ones so its a change every year deal. Does anyone make an actual high quality booster pump with like a 5 year warranty? |
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80 grit
Active Member
United States
47 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 5:47:14 PM
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| Well,the saga continues.Of the 4 that went back to the bus dealer to repair roof leaks, all of them still leak. 3 not so bad, and one quite bad. I question the roof integrity with that much water coming in there has to be a deeper problem.I also wonder how long until it rusts in the roof. Come on Tulsa step it up and do the job right.As for the other problems, they have had the reprogram and the plastic heater booster pumps have been replaced with a cast brass one.I can track down a part# if you like. Erik |
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mastertech
Advanced Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 06:33:53 AM
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I think the only true fix will be to convert them over to an exhaust pipe injection system and keep unburned fuel out of the cyllinders. Our dealer seems to be on engine pull bandwagon and ripping all the new engines out for bed plate resealing even they go over for the other warranty issues. I wonder if it is all in vain if the fuel in the oil is just going to dissolve the new seals.
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eicsbus
Senior Member
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:05:03 PM
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BOOSTER PUMPS 868242,,,guys we are finding that in 90% of booster pumps, the screws are loose when NEW...tighten them before install, and like i said move to outside of air cleaner lid,,,this has really made ours last!!!
ps: if you want job security ,,,work for ic, you will never have a slow down!!! |
I.C. NO FUTURE
formally ,,,,wright11 |
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eicsbus
Senior Member
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:07:45 PM
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| stepwell heater motors,,,dont buy from ic,,,,goto your bergstrom dealer,,,half price |
I.C. NO FUTURE
formally ,,,,wright11 |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:27:06 PM
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| so far the bus that started this thread has run close to 5000 mi since repairs were done at dealer, has not gained a drop of oil or appeared in oil sample yet, will keep fingers crossed. with all the parts IH had dealer change/ install prior to letting them change injectors, bus should be running like new. although they told me that the dpf was cleaned, part of warranty process, so may be bus hasn't had to regened itself yet? |
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IC warranty woes
