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IWantToKnow
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2005 : 6:31:15 PM
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Our driver, Mr. Mac, sometimes has to run double elementary routes in the AM, so we're often stranded at our bus stop. Miss Lisa on Bus 15 comes by our stop on the way to our school to unload her kids. She notices us, and is pulling up at our stop to do the entire bus 16 route about 10 minutes later. Our route goes through what some people call "the ghetto", and we pick up alot of people there. Sometimes, they get on the bus talking about each other, and sometimes vulgar language gets involved. One morning, Miss Lisa overheard some kids talking about each other, and she said, "I don't know what yall's regular driver lets y'all do, but on my bus we don't talk about people like that, so shut the f**k up!" The district reviewed the onboard camera videos, and no action was taken. Do you think this is an example of good discipline or verbal abuse? Share your thoughts!  |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 6:45:07 PM
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| I certainly would not call that good discipline, however I don't personally feel it is direct verbal abuse, some people may feel different on that. But I don't feel that was the best way to handle that, she would have been fine if she just left the last few words off, however I'm sure those students got the point. How old are the students involved? You mentioned your driver sometimes does double elementary routes, I'm assuming this means he is late for the middle/high school run which would mean we're dealing with kids who are probably at least 13 years old. |
If you have an International, you NEED customer service. |
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IWantToKnow
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 7:32:48 PM
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This is how routing works in District 5:
Elementary routes begin at 6:30 AM, and elementary students are at school by 7:10 AM, and then at 7:10 AM, middle school / high school routes start. Miss Lisa started picking up bus 16's (Mr.Mac's route)route at about 7:45 AM. The district 5 bus fleet is divided in half at 7:10, so half is all middle school routes, and half is all high school routes. So yes, she was dealing with kids from about 11-14 years old. Yes, I know, the routing is VERY complicated. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 9:02:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IWantToKnow
... The district reviewed the onboard camera videos, and no action was taken. Do you think this is an example of good discipline or verbal abuse? Share your thoughts!
So much depends on the child or group that you're working with it becomes difficult to give a general consensus one way or the other. Sometimes the district takes no action because the event did not occur. Other times they take no noticeable action with children using that language and are simply obliging the same action with drivers, provided it is rare and they don't act out toward staff or parents with that language. It can be considered a form of discipline or a verbal directive when the language is used by the kids as well. A few drivers with persistent vulgar mouthed kids have had some success responding in kind - just as if the child's home life includes a lot of screaming, talking loud to that loud child may be appropriate until a calmer exchange can be reached. Experts seem to argue back and forth over how to respond when in a verbal exchanges with certain kids. Loud responses is not out of the question, especially when making a command that the child do something - NOW! I prefer to avoid vulgar language and call on respect between students on the bus - insist on it - and that may include on occasion a loud directive to follow the direction. It helps to know the child and what works NOW and what can be discussed in a calmer tone that is not an immediate directive. Also, using the bus inside PA with a low growl in you voice can bring instant compliance when the kids believe the tome indicates someone may soon be returned to the school if the vulgar language does not cease NOW. However, A child on drugs or huffing, may be over stimulated by a loud bus or a loud driver hammering out commands. An erratic over-the-top response from a child may mean a serious problem you may not be aware of. When I see this from a child I radio the behavior immediately requesting support, to see if that calms the child. If not, something may be amiss and immediate support to the bus is a good idea - NOW. (jk)
Click Here to find out The #1 reason some school buses are violent places |
Edited by - JK on 01/30/2005 9:03:20 PM |
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NewBee Driver
Senior Member
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 10:49:21 PM
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| If that kind of language was used with students, regardless of age, the driver should have been suspended a minimum of one day, preferably two or three. We are suposed to set an example, not follow the example of the students. I will admit, that I have used a few words I am not proude of while trying to break up a fight aboard my bus, there is a large difference between "what the h**l are you doing" and "shut the f**k up" |
Driving Seattle To School - And Loving It!! |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 11:49:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by NewBee Driver
... We are suposed to set an example, not follow the example of the students.
May be old training. The importance of example setting, where adults are involved, is how the adults treat each other in the presence of students. Has the greatest effect when the idea is to set by example in the school environment. How kids treat each other I suppose comes next. How adults treat kids is the least example setting according to some. Adults are blown off in an instant, especially adults that disrespect other adults - the exception is if the kids can find some sort of manipulation against those adults. But that's not respect either - simply taking advantage, something kids are experts at. Regardless, myself, the use of vulgar language is usually not helpful, not for kids or adults working with kids in my opinion. And that is an opinion - not willing to label it a fact - not these days. (jk)
Click Here to find out The #1 reason some school buses are violent places |
Edited by - JK on 01/30/2005 11:53:09 PM |
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John Farr
Top Member
USA
642 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 07:57:05 AM
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Use of vulgar language by the adult authority figure to communicate with young adults and children is a "lose/lose" situation for the school bus driver.
* the adult demonstrates loss of control by lowering themselves to a level of unprofessional conduct. Saying that "the students said it first" is an immature defense of unacceptable conduct.
* use of vulgar language shows lack of control on the part of the driver. Students are the ones in control (see below).
* a possible outcome: impressionable or vindictive students will rush to parents, teachers or principals to tell of the driver's poor choice of words. Administrators will then be placed in the position of dealing with this unacceptable behavior. There will probably be vague guidelines regarding use of vulgarity by staff. Consequences, if any, could be left to the discretion of personnel administrators, whose disciplinary actions tend to vary greatly from organization to organization. A PROFESSIONAL SCHOOL BUS DRIVER should never place themselves in this position. There will be no good outcome.
Say what you mean without using these meaningless adjectives. My mother used to say that use of vulgarity demonstrates a person's "poverty of vocabularity."
We adults have a responsibility to model appropriate behavior to impressionable students. Assume that kids are watching our every move, and they expect responsible, professional and adult behavior. So do their parents who entrust us with their children, and so should all of us. |
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bosslady
Advanced Member
USA
336 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 08:29:06 AM
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I do not think an adult working with children of any age should be using bad language.
I agree with John's mother, it only shows your stupidity if you can't find words to express yourself without using bad language.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a saint and I have been known to use a cuss word on occasion at home (Never the "F" word). In 30 years, I have never used a bad word on the bus. I don't care how many cuss words the kids hear at home, I do think adults in authority need to set an example for the students. I didn't cuss my own children, and I will not cuss at anybody else's.
I also did not allow the students to use bad language on my bus,
The high schoolers probably talk that way among themselves in the back of the bus, but if someone complains or the younger children hear it, they will be written up.
We tranport pre-school through seniors in the same bus, so things are probably a little different than for those of you who only transport students of the same age group.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 09:13:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John Farr
... * a possible outcome: impressionable or vindictive students will rush to parents, teachers or principals to tell of the driver's poor choice of words. Administrators will then be placed in the position of dealing with this unacceptable behavior. There will probably be vague guidelines regarding use of vulgarity by staff. Consequences, if any, could be left to the discretion of personnel administrators, whose disciplinary actions tend to vary greatly from organization to organization. A PROFESSIONAL SCHOOL BUS DRIVER should never place themselves in this position. There will be no good outcome.
Say what you mean without using these meaningless adjectives.
Very well put. However, policy must be specific and enforce consequences, regardless of age group.
Yet, that may not be enough these days.
I read of a case involving the blasted Anti Civil Liberties Union, where an employee chewed out his boss using all sorts of vulgar and obscene adjectives. The employee could not be disciplined. The claim was the language was simply how that employee communicated, had the right to use any language society publicly uses and the employer's policy did not adequately define or address the use of banned language.
The ACLU believes no language should be banned from kids or adults use. I would suggest the ACLU should be banned from any influence in the courts, but am not sure how that would be accomplished, unless they could be labeled a domestic terrorist organization, which I personally believe the ACLU exhibits in my opinion.
President George Washington was greatly offended when such language was used in the presence of ladies. After hearing a host use it at some sort of dinner party, he responded, I thought I was attending a meal in the presence of gentlemen. (I could not locate the exact quote as yet.) He also banned his solders from using fowl language during the war, demanding his troops not use language that offends him who we call on (God) to guide us to victory.
I do agree that such defiant use of the tongue is most often inappropriate, regardless of age, can incite violence, is unprofessional for sure, and should not be allowed on the buses or in the schools.
Click Here to find out The #1 reason some school buses are violent places |
Edited by - JK on 01/31/2005 09:44:04 AM |
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mlkdrives41
Top Member
USA
2055 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 10:16:28 AM
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| No excuse for swearing at students. You need to maintain a professional demeanor at all times, not try to use street talk with them. There are plenty of other words she could have used. |
Nothing great has ever been accomplished without enthusiasm! |
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YardBird
Advanced Member
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2005 : 06:31:41 AM
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Interesting, the responses to this.
That driver seems to have seriously contradicted herself. Her response (the last couple words) basically canceled out the message she was trying to convey.
Nowadays I've noticed that a lot of kids, especially ones that are deep into the whole "ghetto/street culture" scene tend to take politeness and courtesy and any hint of professionalism as a sign of weakness to be exploited.
Simply put, with these kids-if you don't talk the talk or walk the walk-you become a target to be taken advantage of. Truly animalistic thinking.
Depending on the situation, I've had to respond to a kid in the only language he/she seems to understand. Especially when there's no doubt that I have to sound like I really mean what I'm saying.
In cases like that, I usually try to isolate that one kid and quietly (out of earshot of most of the other passengers)tell them in their own language how it is going to be.
I drove a bus for a short while in downtown Niagara Falls, NY. A good many of the kids there were what could only be described as 'thugs' who would usually not respond to any other than vulgar language.
I guess sometimes whether you're wrong depends upon where you're sitting.
I agree though, it's not normally acceptable for someone who is supposed to be an authority figure to use that sort of language-but when in Rome....... |
Sure! I'll pick your kid up closer to the house... Widen your front door!
"I LOOOOOVE MY UNION!" |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2005 : 10:21:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by YardBird
... Depending on the situation, I've had to respond to a kid in the only language he/she seems to understand. Especially when there's no doubt that I have to sound like I really mean what I'm saying. ... I agree though, it's not normally acceptable for someone who is supposed to be an authority figure to use that sort of language-but when in Rome.......
Well said, all of your post. What I find interesting is when decent and honorable administrations were in charge kids were severely punished for using obscene language, even if they used the excuse that some adult said it first.
Now days it often seems adults are required to tolerate mollycoddled kids use of such language, while when used by the driver then the driver is subject to punishment, even termination.
I would not suppose that under normal circumstances a bus driver should use vulgar language toward a child. Regardless, where children are not immediately removed from the bus and severely punished for using such language, then there is no legitimate rational to prevent bus drivers from using such language just as freely.
I recall an event near my bus in a high school loading area where a repeat offending HS kid was rubbing his personal body parts at MS girls on my bus. When instructing the kid to leave the area - NOW! - the kid responded F*** You. When I called base and reported the incident, and they called the HS school, which then would not come to the bus, I responded the behavior toward MS and Elementary students was clearly sexual harassment and included the exact quote the student had made when directed to leave the area.
Staff came to the bus very fast, at which point I informed the HS staff present that these little kids (sitting in the front seat) and the MS girls said they certainly would be informing their parents what they saw and heard due to no staff supervision at this school.
Just about everyone was upset at the language I'd quoted over the radio. I responded, how can anyone be upset about that? Myself and little children on my bus have had to hear it and also see displays of sexual misconduct outside the bus at that school EVERY DAY! It's time we started sharing until that school gets its act together.
Both school staff and police were at that school loading area for a few weeks after that - then evaporated. I would have pursued it farther, but the word was out and obnoxious kids stayed clear of my bus. Solved the issue around my bus.
Sometimes you have to be creative to get the support you need, at least for your bus and your kids. Adults use of obscene language may be appropriate under certain circumstances, especially perhaps when the school appears to act deliberately indifferent toward their students making gross sexual displays and using obscene language toward you and the children under your care.
I would certainly recommend always quoting the exact language on students bus tickets. Seems to be much more effective than writing Johnny said 'F U' when instructed to ... (blah, blah blah). (jk)
During the War, George Washington was adamant about his troops using obscene language. A soldier using such language within his hearing range received fifty lashes for the first offense and fifty more for a second offense. Didn't find any information referring to a third offense.
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Edited by - JK on 02/14/2005 08:42:27 AM |
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bosslady
Advanced Member
USA
336 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 05:29:50 AM
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i have also started writing down exactly what the student said when writing discipline slips. I think it makes more of an impact when the parent has to read the exact obscene words that came out of her little darlings mouth.
Sometimes I cringe when I'm writing them, but maybe the parent cringes also when reading them. |
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Stevebus42
Advanced Member
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 05:23:37 AM
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I am in total agreement with John Farr on this one I also agree with Boss lady on one point you put verbatum what they say even the F word has to be spelled out no matter how offensive it may be to the driver.
In our district the bus driver fill out a copy of the referal and sighns the forms that the secretary in the transportation office completes the multi copy form which is sent to the school |
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Verbal Abuse or Good Discipline????
