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Admin
Administrator
USA
1664 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2002 : 11:20:44 AM
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What do you do if one of your drivers complains that a passenger with special needs is behaving violently (hitting, biting, throwing, etc.)? What rights do you have to discipline the student? How do you determine if the behavior is a result of the student's condition and if it is, what do you do? I'm working on a story on the topic for the August issue of School Bus Fleet. Any input you could give me, especially that detailing specific incidences you've experienced, would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Sandra Matke
Managing Editor
School Bus Fleet
sandra.matke@bobit.com
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2002 : 7:40:54 PM
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Sandra,
Our district would have the student removed from the bus and placed on a Special Ed route, where there would be a bus monitor to help the driver out. The monitor and driver have been trained and educated to handle students like this. These special Ed buses also have alternative students riding the bus, not to separate the students, but have them count the blessing they have over other children with handicaps.
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Dr. Ray Turner
Active Member
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2002 : 08:43:19 AM
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Sandy: Violent students on the regular bus do not necessarily belong on the special needs bus. They should be prosecuted in civil or criminal court as our district does to the maximum extent of the law. Violent students who are special needs who are not already on the special needs bus should have regular drivers write them up, call the police and fill out a complaint and/or police report. We can suspend up to ten days per year off the bus according to the IDEA. Additional days require an alternative transportation service. No bus service usually means for special needs students that they --when suspended--cannot attend school having their parents take them so they cannot be suspended for more than ten school days per school year.
Specifics---I encountered a special needs student who was habitually violent on the bus. He had been reported in to the school district police by the special needs bus driver. When the police arrived the officer was attacked by the student on the special needs lift bus. He attempted to choke the officer. The officer struck him with his baton twice on the thighs. This stopped his action immediately and he sat down without saying a word. The dad showed up and was out of control because his child (a large teenager with a history of violence in the district) was struck by the police officer. The police officer, with his supervisor present, explained to the parent that reasonable force was necessary to control the situation. The parent cooled off and left without further consequences. I suspect that theparent knew that reasonable force was applied in this situation and that suiing the district would fail.
All of our special needs Driver Teams take Nonviolent Crisis Intervention or CPI. In this instance neither the assistant or the driver used their training effectively or at all.
We can lead a "horse to water but can't make them drink" seems to apply here.
Good luck, Sandy.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2002 : 11:12:15 AM
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quote:
"... In this instance neither the assistant or the driver used their training effectively or at all. ..."
I'm uncertain what the Driver Team should have done differently in the instance you mentioned. Apparently striking the child with a baton was the action needed to win the child's compliance. Are the drivers allowed to strike kids with batons?
A horse will drink when thirsty and can trust the waters are not poisoned. Be patient and be ready.
We've been through the "suspension from the bus for more than ten days issue" on another post. I'll simply leave this post with adamant disagreement concerning that issue and the thought that there are many reasons violent children can be refused transportation on any school vehicle. (jk)
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Captain Larz
Senior Member
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2002 : 2:41:03 PM
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So the officer is supposed to let the student throttle him until:
A: The officer dies?
or
B: The student gets bored?
I'm not saying that the officer had the right to beat the kid bloody, but he did have the right to take action that would send a clear message that the student needed to stop. Look at the story, the officer taps the kid on the legs a couple times and he gets the message and sits down.
Think about it. What if the student tried to choke the bus driver while he/she was driving?
Larz |
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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2002 : 5:27:49 PM
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I don't think criminal prosecution would work with all special needs students. If they are mentally challneged, they may not understand what's going on and may not make the connection as to why people are beating their thighs with a batton.
I disagree Mike.
As you know (Mike), I've worked with special-ed students, ranging from high functioning autistic to profoundly mentally handicapped. True, students might not know what is going on around them. Regardless, all students, including mildly and severely mentally handicapped, need to learn to behave appropriately as possible, and that there must be consequences for violent behavior, through behavior modification. If needed, such students who throw violent fits should be restrained and calmed down. I believe the teacher should help reinforce appropriate behavior on the school bus, since the school bus is an extension of the classroom.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2002 : 11:00:40 AM
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Sorry...some of you misunderstood. I'm not bashing self defense here. I don't want anyone to get hurt here...I know people that have been in these situations. I just don't think they would understand what jail time or fines would be for. If it comes to self defense, then that's fine, but I do not think that criminal prosecution or suspension would be all that effective.
Stop at: http://www.buses.cjb.net
Forums: http://thebusboy.proboards2.com
Quote:
"Today is the first day of the rest of your life."
-Unknown
Whether or not the child understands jail time, other confinment or fines probably is not the issue. Did Osauma Ben Lauden understand that the Twin Towers would collapse killing all those people?
Closer to home and age, how many of the kids that shot and killed students in school shootings really understood those kids would actually die?
Whether or not a child understands the ramifications of his or her actions can become irrelevant when looking at the consequences the child's actions had on the victim. Society, including school employees, have the predominate right to be protected from violent acts. This would seem to me to especially apply to those aggressors that have no concept of the danger their behavior can wrought on others.
Remember veteran Fulton County bus driver Lynda Clanton? She was attacked by a child on her bus, resulting in 17 stitches, a massive infection, and several surgeries.
Many drivers from all over the Atlanta area said they were afraid to talk to to the press. They were afraid of losing their job. But many did talk to the press and painted a picture about school district secrecy and the persistent intimidation toward their bus drivers not to tell about the violence on their buses.
The drivers that spoke to the press said, "they felt like they were under siege, not only from some of the children but from parents and the school administrations themselves." Sound familiar?
Because of the way the law is written, my understanding is most schools believe they can be sued for releasing private information to the public. Some schools carry this concept too far, extending protection to criminal acts where no such protection exists.
Think about this. A child abused by the parent is reported to the appropriate agency and usually without any hesitation. But when it happens at school or on the buses, then handling the event internally is what often happens.
Day cares, foster care, senior citizen facilities and now churches are suffering the consequences of violence and abuse they've kept secret. Some schools attempt to keep secrets too, not in the effort to respect children or parents privacy rights, but all too often the effort is to protect the schools reputation and the administration's behind.
Laws are changing that reenforce existing laws or make it a crime for schools not to report a criminal act to law enforcement, including violent acts such as assault. In some states not only is the school to report an assault but the affected staff member is also expected to make a separate report to law enforcement.
Where fighting or assault is the issue the best policy I've heard of is one where the drivers were not to physically intervene in a fight, if they decided that trying to break up the fight would place them in harms way. What they are expected to do is immediately call police for help. Bus drivers with cell phones could call police even before calling dispatch.
This policy helps separate the effective crime-fighting schools from unscrupulous school administrations that attempt to deny decent treatment for the victims of crimes.
Sane or insane, understanding or incapable of understanding -- these reasons or excuses have their limits. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 07/19/2002 3:37:42 PM |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2002 : 6:32:49 PM
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quote:
Did Osauma Ben Lauden understand that the Twin Towers would collapse killing all those people?
Just to answer that, yes, and no.
He had a good clue that with all that jet fuel that the steel supports would collapse. He didn't come up with the plan though, it was one of his "wanna be's."
Yes, it's off subject, but I just wanted to answer.
Check out the NEW School Bus Central: http://www.schoolbuscentral.cjb.net
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Busrepair
Senior Member
121 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 06:49:01 AM
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I forsee that the problem is and always has been that things are different from state to state and school to school. Why is that? Should it not be consistant from one school to another school. Should it not be that each school has the exact same policies? I am not saying it should be overseen by Federal Government but the policies should be supplied by them. Or at the lleast supplied by JK. I have looked at several policies that have been posted here (forums) that JK has written and all of them are done so extremely well. Okay enough with the praising. This particular case -- The child provocted the issue of the baton but if there was sufficient and proper trainijng it could have been handeled in a different manner. CPI Training is very beneficial and would have worked IF DONE PROPERLY. Not everyone has the benefit of being trained in CPI. Obviously the officer wasn't. If you are on a bus with special needs or violant children then demand the training. Look at the state board of education regulations. If there is not a statement that the district must provide proper training then get ahold of them and have on put in. Refuse to drive the route until you are given the proper training. Refuse to accept the job position until it is in writting that you will be trained before you are put on the routes.
"If your not happy then You need to change things so that You are."
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2002 : 2:56:28 PM
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Busrepair,
Alas! Someone brilliant enough to understand my great skill and contribution to this forum and to school bus drivers everywhere. But even were it possible for me and a bunch of bureaucrats to sit in the same room with out fighting, and I, yours truly, somehow ended up a National school bus safety policy writer, I doubt doing such a thing would bring much change to schools and school bus environments.
Unfortunately, what you are suggesting in the first part of your post is a "Nationalistic" (from the top down) approach to helping keep kids safe.
The reality is there are already excellent laws on the books, and an abundance of honorable, decent men and woman to help enforce those laws. I seriously doubt another Bill, law or national policy would make much difference.
Here's my reasoning:
Let's suppose a bill is presented, intended to give bus drivers more authority on the school buses. Here's what can happen:
After finding some politician or other expert to present the Bill (sometimes involving a financial contribution you understand) the Bill goes through various committees, is rewritten over and over, adjusted, reviewed, sent back, resent and perhaps eventually approved.
The result: Let's dream a little and say our wonderful Bill is approved, giving bus drivers the authority to refuse transporting any child refusing to follow directions or causing a hazard on the school bus.
The Bill would likely, in the interests of supporting local authority, a current political campaign slogan, allow the states and school districts to make adjustments as needed to maintain state and local authority on the buses and over their bus drivers.
What else can happen? Piggybacks and come-a-longs. These items could be Piggy-backed, come along side or come as a result of our wonderful Bill:
A politician, aware of a relative, friend or contributor to his campaign fund and that own's a research company, presents a request to fund a 1.5 million dollar research project to look at Adult/Child interactive relationships in regard to authority on America's school buses. (APPROVED!)
A request for $200,000 from the printing office to research what it will cost to implement, print, send or answer and provide relevant documentation to America's schools about this new Bill. (APPROVED!)
A request from the Man/Boy Love Association that the Bill should include the right of students to engage in sexual activities with their school bus drivers. (NOT APPROVED!)
A 3.7 million request from Homeland Security to investigate potential breaches of authority and national security on America's school buses. (APPROVED!)
A request from the IDEA folks that SPEC-ED/IEP students should be exempt from this Bill's requirements. (APPROVED!)
A politician, owing a contributor a favor for political contributions to his campaign fund, requests 50 cases of booze, at $500 per case, for a congressional banquet and celebration of the end to violence on school buses across America this Bill will bring. (APPROVED!)
And on and on! What a money-maker that Bill could be!
I'm not saying any of these things might be bad or illegal to be going on at the top. I'm merely saying it might be much less of a drain on our country's resources, and probably more effective, would that decent employers and their decent employees start demanding that their unethical counterparts STOP MALTREATING SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS.
The most decent employers, their decent employees, the decent teachers and the decent parents in this great country are of no use -- and even commit a disservice to this great country -- when they sit idly by and watch decency replaced with bullying and other corrupt behavior. These annoy me more than the most corrupted school administrations.
At the very least -- the very, very least -- the decent, if they can't do something, should at least say something.
True and permanent change, and the purist, most efficient growth from change -- and the most healthiest yield from the plant -- comes from the roots in fertile soil at the bottom, not from the flower at the top.
Bus drivers should keep in mind, that when they say something about their fellows maltreatment they can likewise end up in trouble with that administration.
But also always keep in mind that when saying nothing, this inactivity can end up placing themselves, their fellows and the following generations under the thumb of the incompetent, the unethical and eventually the bully.
It's been said by expert builders that it is important to keep the roof of a building in good repair. But for those that have been ignoring your foundation, your great history -- and your heritage that made you and this country so great in the first place -- better grab your buckets and trowels. The foundation needs work too! (jk)
Note: Some can start here, with a look at the strange history of our great Pledge of Allegiance. No, the Pledge of Allegiance was not written by a great composer of White House or government speeches. Nor was it written by a master of songwriting, a great composer or by a great poet. And no, it was not written by someone well accepted by his own fellows or even by someone with perhaps a fully functioning thought process. And the greater and deeper meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance didn't come from a college graduate or an expert historian. Here's the link:
http://www.geocities.com/2safeschools/ata0207.htm
Edited by - jk on 07/20/2002 12:41:07 PM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
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Busrepair
Senior Member
121 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 05:39:03 AM
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I only check these every so often. Sorry, I should have responded several weeks ago. I can understand that it would be a drain on Gov. monies. I can also understand that it would be difficult and timely to do this. What I do not understand is that if things are in the best interest of the children would it not make sense to have certain subjects consistant from one school to the next? Even if one is in Florida and the other is in Alaska.
It seems to me that there are certain guidelines that should be consistant. Maybe that would be a start instead of forming a bill.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 08:25:20 AM
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My somewhat factious and simplistic look at the process of Bills is not intended to omit that process, only to point out that after all the effort and time spent at the top the Bill can be an expensive adventure rendered useless:
"A request from the IDEA folks that SPEC-ED/IEP students should be exempt from this Bill's requirements. (APPROVED!)"
Many of the national safety standards in this country, such as electrical and plumbing safety codes originated from unions and consumers, not from politicians or government. These standards do the job -- that is when you plug a tv in to a standard outlet anywhere in this country you can expect about 120 volts, 60 cycles, even though some other standard somewhere in the world might be better.
There are standards within standards. A double-A battery is a standard, the same size and voltage, I think anywhere in the world. But there are a zillion 1.5v battery sizes and chemical types.
My point here is even where strict standards exist, up pops different formats, mostly according to a need for a specific standard, and also a need to specialize within a specific standard.
To let government make something the same everywhere and leave it at that would have gave us one phone with two colors to choose from. That's the risk in every consumer category when government or a monopoly, or government the monopoly, is in charge and without an ethical and independent group at the helm working in the consumers interest and maintaining accountability.
Where standards work best, government must be a servant to ethical interests that want an accountable standard all can work with.
A workable and ethical standard probably exists in the manufacture of school buses, with some exceptions. But there is no such consistent standard for the bus management environment the school buses operate in and where government is not the master.
Every bus safety organization with serious clout is funded by the government -- government the master, not the servant. One result, a noncomforming van law with little or no clout to enforce.
Another result: IDEA is an organization with frightening clout, and one of the most dangerous groups toward children and bus driver safety on the buses in my opinion -- an organization completely government funded and also that organization is the regulator establishing their standards.
What exists today in the school bus safety environment in some areas can be found a lax of enforcement, while in other areas an idea can be found way over done. These extremes seem a result of what politics can achieve, and it's not all bad. But keep in mind that much of what's not all bad has more to do with what parents achieved in spite of the politicians and the school bus industry.
There is no national school bus drivers union or national independent school bus driver safe practices organization out there -- not one with the clout to establish national school bus safe practices standards.
There doesn't seem to be a way to get school bus drivers, as a group on a national level, to stop bickering amongst themselves, adequate to establish ethical national safe practices school bus safety standards. There are a few organizations that tried and no longer exist -- a few others remain working in the direction you suggest.
What you see today is the best government and parents can achieve without the help of this Nation’s school bus drivers. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 07/30/2002 1:06:39 PM |
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violent special-needs students
