| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Midwest
Active Member
USA
25 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2011 : 06:45:40 AM
|
| Has anyone else heard the Cummins ISC is only going to be offered in activity buses and not installed for the school bus application? |
|
|
08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 3:58:55 PM
|
That's news to me, but the only way I get my information is through SBF and SBC forums.
Is there a significant advantage to getting an ISC if you can just beef up the ISB to similar torque/HP? I do realize that the ISC can have more power, but is 300 HP really necessary unless you have excessive hills? What are the differences between the engines? |
Edited by - 08 Thomas EF on 01/28/2011 4:01:25 PM |
 |
|
|
JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 7:14:30 PM
|
Nice attempt at an IC "wet-sleeve" troll.
FYI = handle: Midwest - Location: Kankakee, IL
http://www.midwesttransit.com/
The ISC is alive & well in the Thomas HDX pusher product for both School & Commercial applications. ISL too on the Commercial version.
Somebody else will need to weigh in for the 'Bird product lines. BWest? |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
|
|
|
bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
|
|
Midwest
Active Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 08:51:11 AM
|
| Not a troll. Trying to get facts. Blue Bird and Thomas dealer said they couldn't get the ISC in an RE school bus application. I think it is still available. |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2011 : 12:14:12 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
Nice attempt at an IC "wet-sleeve" troll.
FYI = handle: Midwest - Location: Kankakee, IL
http://www.midwesttransit.com/
LOL, I'm glad we are outta that game. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 08:45:08 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Midwest
Not a troll. Trying to get facts. Blue Bird and Thomas dealer said they couldn't get the ISC in an RE school bus application. I think it is still available.
Yep. The ISC is still in the DataBook homas HDX pusher buses. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
|
|
|
JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 09:01:37 AM
|
quote:
Blue Bird and Thomas dealer said they couldn't get the ISC in an RE school bus application
They would be correct. The RE is an IC bus model. You can't get an ISC in an RE.  |
|
|
|
08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 10:28:14 AM
|
| "RE" can also mean All American RE. |
|
|
|
JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 11:15:33 AM
|
Well, aside from the fact that I was simply trying to inject some mild humor into the topic, Blue Bird does not advertise (in their literature linked via their website) the avialability of the ISC in their latest D3 Rear Engine.
Who knows????
|
|
|
|
Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 1:46:43 PM
|
| Blue Bird only lists the ISB-10 as an engine in the D3 All-American RE. |
|
|
|
bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
|
|
IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 3:03:49 PM
|
Cummins and IH have had a long, cozy relationship but that seems to be over. IC bus is owned by IH so they're only offering IH engines.
I think a lot of it has to due with IH supplying engines to Caterpillar, Cummins competition. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 02/03/2011 3:05:18 PM |
|
|
|
RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 7:35:04 PM
|
Aside from the wet sleeve design, is there really a need for the ISC in most applications when the ISB can put up good numbers?
|
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 05:44:19 AM
|
| I guess I'm lost. Why would BB not offer the ISC in a school bus but put it in an activity bus? I can remember a Chevy 350 (small block) in a 59 passenger bus and now we have 250hp plus in everything. It doesn't make sense that BB would discontinue a more powerful engine. I would more likly believe that they would discontinue the ISB because they are at the top of the power output of that enigne. However I don't believe either one is true. As I always say, "time will tell". |
Bryan |
|
|
|
JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 09:39:23 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech
Cummins and IH have had a long, cozy relationship but that seems to be over. IC bus is owned by IH so they're only offering IH engines.
I think a lot of it has to due with IH supplying engines to Caterpillar, Cummins competition.
Uhm... 
The closest thing Cat & IT&E have going is that IC is putting their MAN licensed induction & injection system on the Cat C15/16 engine block/head combo to produce the MaxxForce 15-ish. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
|
|
|
IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 3:39:37 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JustinB
quote:
Originally posted by IBTMech
Cummins and IH have had a long, cozy relationship but that seems to be over. IC bus is owned by IH so they're only offering IH engines.
I think a lot of it has to due with IH supplying engines to Caterpillar, Cummins competition.
Uhm...
The closest thing Cat & IT&E have going is that IC is putting their MAN licensed induction & injection system on the Cat C15/16 engine block/head combo to produce the MaxxForce 15-ish.
Well, I'll admit I may be a little behind on the latest news but from I have read the latest IH big bore engines will be in the new Caterpillar trucks....... yep, trucks with a cat on the hood and IH involved. I'm not sure of all the details but I know they're swapping spit so Cummins is miffed. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
|
|
|
08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 5:01:17 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman
Aside from the wet sleeve design, is there really a need for the ISC in most applications when the ISB can put up good numbers?
That was exactly my point earlier, except for the wet sleeve part. I didn't even think of that. International brags about the wet sleeve design, and since it's offered on the larger ISC, I assume it's superior? How so... how is it different from a "dry sleeve" (or whatever it's called)? |
|
|
|
bcressey
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 5:08:30 PM
|
The only thing I find funny is that some people tell me how great a wet sleeve motor is. I've rebuilt them, I get it. BUT, the same people tell me that they would never spend the $ to go from an ISB to an ISC. Haven't figured it out yet. Going to keep trying.
Had enough o rings rot out on wet sleeves where I'd prefer not to have them anyway. To get the life out of a wet sleeve in the salt up here, you'd have to have it three different bus bodies. |
|
|
|
Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 7:09:10 PM
|
| Wet sleeves tend to not do well if they've sat unused for quite some time. |
|
|
|
JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 2:14:57 PM
|
quote:
International brags about the wet sleeve design, and since it's offered on the larger ISC, I assume it's superior? How so... how is it different from a "dry sleeve" (or whatever it's called)?
Other engines used in school buses are not sleeved at all. The cylinder is bored into the engine block (parent bore). The Maxx 7 and Cummins ISB are of this type. The ISC and Maxx DT are wet sleeve design.
The two big advertised advantages of wet sleeve vs. are:
1) The cylinder is a area is a wear area for the engine so when a sleeve is used you wear the sleeve vs. the engine block. This means longer engine life.
2) If you have an issue that requires a rebuild, you can rebuild the wet sleeve design by removing the old sleeves and inserting the new. Rebuilding a parent bore requires re-boring the cylinder a more costly repair procedure. Plus International for years touted the ability to do in frame re-builds vs. having to pull the engine.
I would say that with today's engines there is very little real advantage of wet sleeve vs. parent bore. Just my opinion. I'm sure there are others here that will disagree. |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2011 : 06:43:29 AM
|
| Would it will cost just as much to replace a sleeve v/s bore anyway if you take to dealer? In house rebuild would not be bad if you had the tools to do it right. How much down time is the bus in the garage? I would soon replace the engine and get the bus back to making money. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2011 : 12:27:54 PM
|
Making money? Since when were school buses money-makers, except for the contractors?  |
|
|
|
Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2011 : 1:16:04 PM
|
^School buses help make money when ads are plastered all over them. If you're selling buses, they're money makers..
|
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2011 : 2:22:50 PM
|
Don't forget ol' Wolf is a contractor.
Anyway, I'm kind of with the no sleeve guys. These things they're making now are throw away anyway so why not put a throw away engine in them. Someone said on this forum a year or so ago that the buses today are designed to last just over 10 years. I believe that more and more everyday because of the pure junk I am seeing and hearing of here.
So, wet sleeve fans, how do you justify putting that extra money into a wet sleeve engine? |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2011 : 2:43:52 PM
|
| Yes if the bus isn't running the route and sitting on the fence, it's not making money. I also loan out my temps to other contractors and businesses which brings in the cash. I don't like the corporations running my routes with their temps and charging me. I don't rebuild engines here, I replace them and get them back on the route. I haven't replaced an engine since 1999 and that was a 366 with 170,000. Coolant gets changed every 2 years in everything so I don't experience any engine rot. There are no plans for us to advertise on our buses that I know of. Unless it's for my shop. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
bcressey
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2011 : 5:01:14 PM
|
| Given the advances in lubrication, electronic controls, etc. I don't think a wet sleeve in a school bus vocation justified anymore. Of the major failures we see, most would be irrelevant whether it was sleeved or not. |
|
|
|
Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2011 : 05:37:00 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
So, wet sleeve fans, how do you justify putting that extra money into a wet sleeve engine?
In a school bus application, I think insisting on wet sleeves anymore is pretty much just an excuse to buy their unit of choice. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
C Series Cummins
