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largebus
Advanced Member
USA
468 Posts |
 Posted - 07/30/2002 : 4:00:33 PM
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This topic has been briefly skirted over in the past but I think it needs to be covered in full: Do you feel that a transportation director/manager should have previous experience as a bus driver? This was covered in an article of SBF (can't remember which one though) which included different reasons for "yay" or "nay". Any reasons you had would be excelletn (I think wagonmaster and thomasvist2012 would provide excellent reasons as one is currently an administrator and the other wishes to become one).
"Kids be quiet and listen to the nice bus driver".
"That ain't how ya do it ya do it like this-HEY SHUT UP BACK THERE!" |
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KMM
Advanced Member
USA
271 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 4:13:56 PM
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Yes, Largebus, I do believe the transportation supervisor should be required to have previous experience as a driver. My supervisor has none and sometimes it is hard for him to understand what we are trying to tell him when it comes to certain things. Don't get me wrong, he is a good supervisor and he tries but he just does not have the know how in some areas. I believe it would also be helpful for him to be able to drive in the event of a last minute call off, breakdown, or an accident when another bus needs to be on the road ASAP. (In the event of a breakdown, the fleet mechanic will bring us a spare from the compound but per chance he is absent, we are out of luck!!!)
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BlueBird44
Top Member
USA
1639 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 5:08:17 PM
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In my opinion I think the Transporation Director should have been involed with driving a bus before they can have the job.
All of our Transporation Directors have never really driven a bus regulary. The Transporation Director I work with right now does a pretty good job. He seems to understand and helps them very good even though he never drove. Most of our T/D are teacher who want to move into the administrative position. Alot of people in my District office who have gotten to know me want me to become the next T/D for our District. I would only be one for my district. But I will certianly never take the job without first getting some years in as a driver. Some of the drivers which I have talked to about that think that is good that I want to drive first. It a shame when you get people in that position who don't understand or don't care. So I think you should have some years of driving under your belt. So if a teacher wants to take that position they should spend some years driving a bus first.
~BlueBird44~
 Remember Bus Drivers play the most important role in a student's day. |
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Busmatt
Active Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 04:41:14 AM
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Absolutley NOT!
This should not be a "requirement" for becoming a director / supervisor.
The ability to manage an organization of any type does not preclude having been involved in that style, type or even a related industry. This ability comes from being an educated, able and informed manager.
A school district does itself a disfavor by only looking at drivers or those with school bus experience to run a department becasue it will be excluding managers who might actually have new and quality ideas about providing the services that we provide everyday.
I will say that I am a director, and I think a pretty damn good one. My fleet is clean & proffesional and my staff provides excellent service to the parents, students and taxpayers of my district. I also never drove a school bus NOR RODE ON ONE, ever in my life before coming here.
Jesus Saves! ... Yzerman rebounds... He shoots... HE SCORES! |
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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 08:19:37 AM
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Largebus,
I'm inclined to not believe a director should have previous experience as a driver. I feel this way because of my personal aspirations.
I am starting college this year. I'm majoring in business and I plan to become a transportation director. Unfortuntely, I will have no driving experience when I leave college because the state of Florida requires drivers to be 21 years of age. So, that means I will not be able to drive while in college (as much as I want to), but I do not think this should affect someone choosing me as a director. Don't be offended when I sound cocky, but I could do a much better job as transportation director than half the people who are. I've seen too many incompetent bufoons as directors. It's like a clown show.
Although I'm not (or will not be) a driver, I still have a knowledge and background in this industry, that is essential to the job of transportation director. And quite frankly, many directors these days lack those two things.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 10:52:23 AM
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My thoughts are mixed on this issue. I could go either way, depending on the personality and other skills of a pending transportation director. Yes, I think personality can be a skill.
I believe John Farr, wagonmaster and others would make excellent transportation directors, even had they never seen a school bus prior to accepting their transportation positions.
Much has to do with leadership skills, especially the skill to delegate and support subordinate responsibilities. Those that have these skills need never sit behind the wheel of a school bus. And, no amount of driving school bus will replace these leadership skills.
Temperament is probably also an issue, and the ability to win support from the administration and school board.
Those of you that have read my posts -- how many think a school district administration or school board would have any interest in me. Let me help here. Most likely, not one!
The reason is simple. Under my leadership the administration's and school board needs would place second to the bus drivers and the parents needs. Where a decision must be made, nowhere could be found a house divided in side of me.
My constant push to unite bus drivers and parents in one direction, according to their needs -- not mine or the school board's or the administration's -- forces a division of loyalties that must be managed appropriately to be effective. That takes a special temperament I don't have and do not want.
No matter how much I might know about school bus safe practices, I can not find the skill to tolerate bureaucratic nonsense.
When considering these things in their full context, I would have to say that bus driving experience, bus driver trainer's certification and anything else to do with school buses, per say, is the least of the needed qualifications to manage a school bus transportation department.
Having years of school bus driving experience is certainly helpful in some people -- a great asset to managing a transportation department successfully. In others, not so good.
Most important is the ability to delegate responsibility and support those on the front lines with persistent decency and honor characteristic of any great leader. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 08/07/2002 11:02:33 AM |
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Stevebus42
Advanced Member
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 5:09:02 PM
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I would say no to this one. The Job of the Transportation Director/Manager is to work on such important items as the budget, being a good fence repairman, politician, and planner.
Having some experience as a driver may be some what helpful especially when the roads get bad and driver sometimes call in sick and you can't cover all the routes.
I spent 20 years in the Air Force in Transportation and Supply and the one thing that I find refreshing is how simular the logic is. The military logic is alive and well in the public school system.
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BusBoy
Top Member
USA
2042 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2002 : 07:56:28 AM
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I think they should! You should know what your drivers go though everyday!
I think a principal started out teaching before moving into a Administrative roll!
Edited by - Busboy on 10/14/2002 12:04:25 PM |
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UncleNeal
Senior Member
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2002 : 07:10:51 AM
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As a school bus driver FIRST, and Transportation Director second, I believe that in almost all cases they should have some schoolbus driving experience. Regardless of the amount of related management experience and formal training, nothing can prepare you to better understand drivers' concerns than actually driving a bus. In other words, how can you relate to drivers' problems unless you have "been there, done that?" By the way, I did say "almost all cases" and there could be some exceptions, but overall the supervisor or director should know what it's like to turn your back on a bus load of students!
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2002 : 05:06:59 AM
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I've watched this post for as long as I can without comment. There is no way that a Transportation Director should be required to have been a School Bus Driver. The duties and responsibilities are miles apart. The only similarity is that BOTH want to get the kids to school safely. What about the added requirements like, hiring quality staff? Not just drivers, but mechanics, office workers, driver trainers, and others. How would one learn the skills necessary to develop training programs, review routing efficiency, and other critical management techniques? How about supervising those people? Where does bus driving 101 teach those skills? How about disciplinary action, and equitability?
I work in a large district with over 1,000 employees in the Transportation Department, alone. In a smaller district with a staff that numbers far less, criteria for staff is usually more relaxed. The 30-40 bus operation would be a great training ground for employees, including drivers, to learn the management techniques necessary to move up in the transportation arena.
I know that there are some drivers out there that have these types of skills, but unless they have a track record of experience (in which case you'd have to ask yourself why they had reverted to driving) how would you ever know?? We pride ourselves in promoting from within our ranks and I have some Route Coordinators and Shop Foremen that came initially from the drivers ranks. We are proud of those folks and GLAD to have such quality people in our system, but would it be a REQUIREMENT for them to have been a driver?? No way!
We will always look for quality people to train, and those that already have excellent skills to promote, but driving experience isn't always a prerequisite.
Joe
Edited by - wagonmaster on 09/06/2002 05:17:07 AM
Edited by - wagonmaster on 09/06/2002 08:31:27 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2002 : 08:21:55 AM
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Wagonmaster,
I was curious how many posts it would take for you to respond to this issue. I agree with your thoughts on this matter.
Regardless, I have to disagree that somehow some drivers out there have reverted to driving school bus --implying less than ... -- or why that should come into question. It's irrelevant.
One of the best transportation directors I worked with was previously an aircraft controller. He knew nothing about the buses but could route the buses like a superstar, and could remember the details of every route in his mind. He learned fast.
His thought, the bus driver is the captain of his/her bus and should be respected as such. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 09/06/2002 08:23:29 AM |
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2002 : 09:04:57 AM
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As much as I would like to see the transportation director have some sort of prior experience in pupil transportation (i.e. having driven a school bus before), I can respect the thoughts of those who don't feel the same way. I can also understand how a strong background and/or understanding in business, management, etc., could offset any prior experience.
I'm in the same boat as Jason — I'd love to eventually become a transportation director. I'm currently in school trying to take the right courses that will give me the knowledge and understanding that I'll need down the road. I've chosen to major in business and management with a transportation concentration; I'll also have a certificate in railroad operations by the end of the school year (not exactly relevant to pupil transportation, but it's an interest I have nonetheless). So, I hope I've made a good decision as far as my education path is concerned.
Anyway, the only thing I question about what Joe said is what JK pointed out; the 'reverted to driving' statement. 
Crown Supercoach - The “Royalty” of Pupil Transportation |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2002 : 10:11:16 AM
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JK,
You're correct. I knew when I wrote it(I didn't like it either). I couldn't think of a more appropriate description at the time. Certainly no disrespect intended, but one with the necessary skills would be in demand enough to be able to land a supervisor/coordinator's position, with the corresponding higher rate of pay. One would wonder why they returned to the lower paying position. It is relevant in that regard, in my opinion.
Your Air Traffic Controller friend could demonstrate good examples of HAVING to plan ahead, for sure. Bet they took a heck of a pay cut, but now they will live longer!! As a former Marine Helicopter crew chief, I've always thought of drivers as the "Captains" of their respective ships. They get the credit AND/or the blame, as appropriate.
Joe
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mr.dave
Advanced Member
USA
414 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2002 : 06:58:17 AM
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If a person is a good manager they will learn the needs of their workers. Directors of transportation manage bus drivers,special education drivers, monitors,mechanics, schedulers, dispatchers,janitors, payrole specialists etc. How many of these should be worked, or mastered before becoming a director.
Unfotunatly modern managment training often stresses intimitating and bullying the workers instead of managing the shop. I've seen a good shop ruined as a "manager" tried to bully a few more "work units" out of a good productive crew. I had to rebuild the shop after key personel left and production cratered, and the manger went to work their "magic" elsewhere in the company.
One does not have to be a sheep to become a shepherd, but one does need to understand sheep, and put the sheep's needs before one's own to be a shepherd.
shalom dave
P.S. I would like to see school board members requiered to drive schoolbuses. No, perhaps not driving requiers skill, common sense and integrity. Sure glad it doesn't requier spelling skills. -d.
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John Farr
Top Member
USA
642 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2002 : 09:52:41 AM
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For the record, I agree with Joe. I know many excellent directors of transportation who do started the job without school bus driver credentials. All things being equal, if choosing between job candidates - both with good management/leadership skills, I'd take the one with the practical "hands on" school bus driving experience over one who never worked in our industry. Empathy with the daily problems drivers, bus attendants mechanics, dispatchers and others face takes time to absorb. The person with the experience will hit the ground running - BUT given the less experienced applicant has sound grounding in the fundamentals of management, they will catch up quickly.
As pointed out earlier, the smaller the operation, the more the supervisor has to be able to perform all jobs - and the greater the need for the supervisor to drive - if only to be a backup driver. Larger operations have specialty jobs which do not necessarily require driving experience. The director of a very large operation absolutely does NOT have to have driving experience to be effective.
Edited by - john farr on 09/07/2002 9:46:18 PM |
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BUSBOSS105
Senior Member
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 10:11:17 AM
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I think that having an experienced supervisor that has actually driven routes can only add to the knowlege of daily operations. Not only will he be able to understand what actually goes on from first hand experience but can be a valuable asset during emergencies when the driver pool might be short-staffed.
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CRAZYOVERBUSES
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 11:19:45 AM
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I agree with busboss. I drove for a contract one time as a standby. I drove every route, every bus and talked with most of the drives each day and I knew more about what was going on in the "Operation" than he did.
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Busmatt
Active Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2002 : 09:32:28 AM
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I reflect back to my original post and add..
There is no reason for this to be a "requirement" (as stated by Largebus).
Should the Supervisor / Director be someone who can drive.. Yes. Who does drive... maybe.
Who knows what it's like... yes.
But to make it a "requirement" is downright silly.
Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if neccesary. |
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gonzosbus
Senior Member
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2002 : 4:48:34 PM
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When I was Associate Director I was put in change of preparing the Job description for the New Director. I wrote it with the terminology "willing to obtain a school bus certificate" this way we could open it up to all possible candidates. I do believe that the director should be able to drive a school bus, either to take a spare out or to drive as a Sub Driver. But there are so many good people out there who would make excellent Transportation Directors that could be excluded if the requirement was there before hand. Just as a side note I also make sure that my office staff is trained to drive a school bus just in case they are needed in an emergency. Thanks, Armando M Cuellar, Madison Elementary School District #38, Phoenix Arizona
Safety First |
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MrBusDriver
Senior Member
USA
189 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2002 : 3:38:09 PM
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quote:
This topic has been briefly skirted over in the past but I think it needs to be covered in full: Do you feel that a transportation director/manager should have previous experience as a bus driver? This was covered in an article of SBF (can't remember which one though) which included different reasons for "yay" or "nay". Any reasons you had would be excelletn (I think wagonmaster and thomasvist2012 would provide excellent reasons as one is currently an administrator and the other wishes to become one).
"Kids be quiet and listen to the nice bus driver".
"That ain't how ya do it ya do it like this-HEY SHUT UP BACK THERE!"
I am the Supervisor in my district, and I began as a driver. If I had not, I could not begin to tell you how I would be able to perform some of my essential job functions. (Which include responding to emergency service calls and emergency substitute).
Making a transition from driver to Supervisor enables you to have an appreciation for what the drivers face on a day-to-day basis. It enables you to defend a driver against an irate parent, and it enables you to effectively and objectively evaluate the driver's performance.
Nonetheless, there are people who can DO the job without having driven. My personal opinion is that school transportation is by far too specialized of an area to just have "management experience" to be able to be effective in its leadership. You have to possess certain logistical skills as well as (I agree Joe...) you have to be a politician. School transportation can make or break the taxpayer's view of the district.
This is certainly a mixed answer... While I feel you should have had prior experience as a driver, I can also see the logic in a BOE or contractor hiring one who has not been.
Brian J. Whitta
Fostoria Community Schools
419-436-4105
FOSTORIA_BW@noeca.esu.k12.oh.us
Edited by - mrbusdriver on 10/13/2002 3:46:14 PM |
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Wolfman
Senior Member
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2002 : 4:18:24 PM
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This is a tough question. There are good points and bad points on both sides. Where
I drive the transportation director has to train all new subs, So it is nice to have some experience as a driver. The TD we have
now has 20 years behind the wheel of a bus. But the one that trained me never drove a bus. He knew what it was about. So the best way to answer the question is the best person for the job should get it, if they met all the requirements that are posted.
Load them up, sit them down and try to keep them quit!
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Directors = Drivers?
