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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2002 : 12:37:32 PM
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Do you think that your district wastes money at transportation, or do you think that they could afford to spend less and put more money back into the classroom?
Two school districts near me (who shall remain nameless) seem to be wasting excess money on school buses when in turn, the money should be put into the classroom. I know that districts should spend money to provide safe, reliable transportation to school, but where is the line drawn when it comes to excess spending?
Here's something you can't copy: Don't copy my signatures!
http://www.geocities.com/jasonsbuspage |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 12:42:31 PM
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Those districts must be few and far between.
We are finally spending a decent amount of money on transportation,we stoped buying the crap bus bodies, and buying something decent, and we are replacing the buses a little sooner than we were, we now have a 12 year life span.
"Blue Birds can hardly make it back to the nest, but Thomas always passes the test."
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Silas J.
Top Member
USA
938 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 1:02:35 PM
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My distric is having major budget problems......We built a million dollar high school in 1999,and have been in debt since.The budget wasn't plannd out well last year,and we are short on money.Also,a wheel tax to try to bring in money for the school board failed.Two drivers,and many school faculty members were fired because we really couldn't afford to pay them.Classes are being canceled because we really can't afford to operate them......And we just spent around $180,000 on three brand spankin' new buses.
Silas J.
97-12 It will outrun your bus.
Stop by http://geocities.com/bluebirdtwelve/
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Busmatt
Active Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 1:13:51 PM
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Quality bus transportation is never a "waste of money" unless your entire district lives within safe (!) walking distances to school and you never have bad weather.
The question then becomes.. Do you need the chrome accessories on the bus you are buying? No, not really. Just solid qualilty buses (Whatever brand you prefer).
When new projects and expanded transportation roles are thought up by administration outside of transportation, I make sure to relate it this way..
The average school textbook costs $50. This project or addition will cost $xxx OR ## of textbooks. Do you still want to go ahead with this.
That way it puts it into a real perspective that board members and the public can understand.
MT4 |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 2:23:08 PM
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Our district is very efficient. We consistently lead our state in terms of costs per student, passengers per bus, miles per bus, and percentage of reimbursement from the state, etc. We have to spec high end, heavy duty buses to keep up with the demands that we put on them in every day use. If we could do away with special projects such as magnet schools, etc we could do even better, but I know that will never happen. As it is, we transport about 63,000 kids per day to and from school on 600 route buses in the largest district (area-wise) east of the Mississippi river. We still try to do better and better every day, and never take anything for granted. We hope to improve still further with our GPS equipment and real time routing information in the near future.
So to answer your question "Do we waste money?" The answer is NO.
Joe
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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 5:18:48 PM
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Maybe I hit a few buttons on this topic.
When I meant a waste of money, I also mean aside from efficiency, wasting money on needless equipment. I find it hard to believe, that my neighboring district, Broward District Schools, doesn't have enough money to build new schools for its exploding population, yet they are buying these loaded Thomas Saf-T-Liner and Freightliner buses with a/c and the works. The same goes for my district Dade County. The crap they do to waste money could fill an encyclopedia.
I also find it a waste how Palm Beach District Schools replaces buses every 10 years or even less at the drop of a dime. I mean, those buses could easily get one or two more years out of them. Haste makes waste, in all of these cases, money spend on needless stuff could be put back into the classroom.
Here's something you can't copy: Don't copy my signatures!
http://www.geocities.com/jasonsbuspage |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 6:19:41 PM
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quote:
I also find it a waste how Palm Beach District Schools replaces buses every 10 years or even less at the drop of a dime. I mean, those buses could easily get one or two more years out of them. Haste makes waste, in all of these cases, money spend on needless stuff could be put back into the classroom.
Hi Jason,
After reading this paragraph from your post above, I figured I would point out a few possible reasons why the Palm Beach district may replace their buses at the 10 year mark or sooner.
First of all, maybe they run a lot of miles on their buses per year. If they do run a lot of miles, then the maintenance costs add up. When the maintenance costs start adding up, sometimes it's more efficient to purchase new equipment at the 10 year mark or even less. In most cases, when buses get older, the maintenance costs outweigh the value of the bus, and if new equipment were purchased, it would be more cost-effective for many reasons such as fuel economy and maintenance. Also, when the buses are 10 years old and are well-maintained, they can get a good re-sale value on them for when someone else buys them.
The only way they could cut back on the amount of miles they do per year on their buses (if they have high-mileage routes) would be to purchase more buses and run less miles on those buses. That would mean less miles on the buses...which in turn may mean keeping the buses around for a couple more years. But then the district would have to then train, hire, and retain more drivers for those buses. Those added buses would also add in costs for parts inventory, inspections, and maintenance. I think it would be cheaper to run fewer buses with more miles. The drivers would also be paid a little more for the added mileage.
That is my view on that situation.
__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 7:20:49 PM
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Hmmm...
I recall one case where this happened, and it was the biggest mistake the district made. They (Shelton School District #309) spent #65K each on 15 transit-style Crapenter transits.
Talk about a crappy investment! This takes the cake! They sould've spent it on better transportation (IE Thomas Saf-T-Liners), or repair the S.U.B.'s (Student Union Building AKA Cafeteria) leaky roof.
Kinda reminds me of the WTC attacks: All of those donations set aside for purposes OTHER than the 9/11 fund.
School districts these days in that case needs their heads examined!!
Gillig - The "DURACELL" of School Buses. http://www.geocities.com/gilligcoaches |
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Silas J.
Top Member
USA
938 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 7:34:18 PM
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Or,(continuing on the SSD #309 topic)they shouldn't have sold the pre-1977 Gilligs anyway.And, the buses we bought have the works also!! What I put was a basic bus price estimate.We keep all the builidings in great shape,but we have to cancel classes!! As a another person put it,DING DING DING!!!
Silas J.
97-12 It will outrun your bus.
Stop by http://geocities.com/bluebirdtwelve/
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BusFreak
Top Member
USA
798 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 8:14:10 PM
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Thomasvista,
I totally understand where you are coming from. Here in Fairfax, the county just ordered a load of brand new International RE buses with AIR CONDITIONING!!!I can somewhat understand a need for AC in Florida, but here in Northern Virginia, it is not needed at all. I feel that the money would be better spent on tougher engines for these buses. These full size type D RE air conditioned buses are being powered by the famous T444E engine. This pick up truck engine has no place on a bus that big, but it saves a few pennies (untill the repairs).
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 03:46:22 AM
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Well Jason,
Time for the gloves to come off? There you sit in Miami-Dade, arguably the most inefficient large district in the state, preaching to other more efficient districts as if you know something that we don't! Your district runs buses 10-12,000 miles per year on an average. Mine averages 24-27,000 miles per bus. Are you beginning to see a need for a sooner replacement cycle here than in your district? Further, we are replacing 65 passenger buses with 84 passenger buses. Does that suggest something to you? In addition, our 65 passenger buses averaged over $11,000 at our last bus auction, fully 1/3 of their purchase price when new. That money comes right back to the classroom or anywhere else it's needed! Do you know what yours brought on average? I do. Earlier in this thread I spoke about our levels of efficiency. Miami-Dade transports only a couple thousand more students than we do each day, but uses THREE TIMES the number of route buses to do it in an area three times smaller than ours!
Think before you speak on topics that you aren't well schooled on, Jason.
Your transportation department is run by good, experienced administrators, I know them well. I also know that they are constantly fighting battles to streamline their operation, and meet obstacles at nearly every turn. Pay attention!
Joe
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member
USA
325 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 06:51:27 AM
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Many times on the surface it may appear as if something is extravagant. A/C in a school bus is a case in point. However, as more and more schools go to extended calenders A/C becomes more of an issue for a safe ride for the students. High heat and humidity creates high fatigue for drivers.
San Diego Unified started replacing their buses on a 7-year cycle. Their reasoning was based on the resale value as well as the reduced maintenance required on their buses.
In seven years, even with minimal PM, modern buses should be able to go the distance without any major repair. They may not even need a new set of tires.
At time of resale the value can be as high as 75% of new. In the past, on buses 20+ years old the resale value rarely was greater than 10%.
When one starts to look at waste in the transportation department one has to determine what is waste. Every day mid-day kindergarten routes are very expensive and are not reimbursed on the state funding formula. But most districts choose to fund the routes because it is perceived as a good education choice.
The bottom line is what may be considered wasteful in one district may be considered an appropriate use of public funds in another district.
One area of waste that can be found in most districts is the number of highly paid "chiefs" with their retinue of "indians" that can be found in the main office. I have a hard time understanding how they can honestly justify the cost of the majority of those positions.
But then that is just my humble opinion.
Mark O.
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1983WardFord
Top Member
USA
1395 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 08:26:03 AM
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Something to chew on... Green Local Schools received bids for a new bus back in February. We will be trading in a 1982 Blue Bird International, 65 passenger. The trade-in value listed for that is a mere $1600.
Superior--built tough, built to last! |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 3:47:34 PM
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After going back and re-reading the posts under this topic, I have come to the conclusion that a very few of you are complaining when you really shouldn't be. Those very few of you have buses with great specs, what's the problem? Sure, more money may need to be pumped into your school budget. How do you know that the schools themselves aren't running as efficiently as they should be?
Florida has many warm and humid days (I assume). I feel that the A/C would be very helpful for passenger safety, driver safety, and most importantly, KEEPING DRIVERS. Who would want to drive a bus that is a sweltering 100+ inside of it on a hot and humid day? Not me! (Although, I probably would still drive it, but that's not the point).
Up here, in my area, things could be better...or they could be worse...depending on how you look at it. One contractor here leases buses and they get new equipment every 3-4 years. They are a small operation with very good specs and equipment. A similar smaller private contractor has a great operation. They have 125 buses, great equipment and great specs, and they serve 5 towns. They are not too close by to me though.
My district is on a 12-year replacement cycle. It is contractor run (First Student). I would say that my district is the best contractor-run district in the area I am in for the most part. We serve 4 towns and a private school, have about 100 buses, and good equipment. However, the equipment is very basic in their specs. The most we get is the am/fm radio and interior P/A system. Crossing gates, vent hatches, and emergency exits are pretty good. But, not air seat, air brakes, tinted windows, LED/strobing lights, reflective tape, air door, power/heated mirrors, acoustical ceiling panels - full-length, or other options that would improve the buses for us. (A paved bus lot sounds good too.)
As I mentioned, I consider our contractor to be good in my area. There is Laidlaw which contracts next door. They seem to get 1 or 2 new buses per year. I believe they are spec'd out a little better than ours (with air door, air seat, power/heated mirrors). But, I think they could use some newer equipment. Most of their equipment is in the '94/'95 model year range.
There is one more First Student district and I sure feel sorry for them. They serve one town. All of the buses they have are all hand-me-downs that come from other First Student districts. They used to have '88-'89 GMC/BB's until last year when they were "upgraded" to some '91-'93 International/BB's. That comprises most of their fleet. The newest buses they have are a few '95's here and there, which they received a couple years ago, from MY district. We replaced those '95's with 2000's. This district also bought some of our '93's.
What I am saying here is I would LOVE to see more money poured into the transportation arena. Not that the schools are perfect either, because they are not, but in my area, something has to be done to allot more money to transportation and schools. By dispersing more money into transportation, it would probably help out with the driver shortages some districts are having around here.
__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 4:41:18 PM
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HEY JASON,
HERE IN BROWARD WE JUST OPTED TO BUY ALL BUSES WITH A/C. UP TO THIS POINT WE BOUGHT ONLY ESE BUSES WITH AIR. WE RUN OUR BUSES 10 TO 12 YEARS AND RETIRE THEM WITH 180-200,000 MILES ON THEM. THEY ARE SOLD AT AUCTION AND BRING BACK TO THE GEN SCHOOL FUND WHAT EVER THE MARKET PERMITS.
NOW OUR SCHOOL KIDS ARRIVE AT SCHOOL FEELING FRESH AND NOT LIKE AN OLD DISH MOP. I AM SURE YOU KNOW HOW HOT IT GETS IN SOUTH FLORIDA
THIS COUNTY AS WELL AS ALL COUNTIES HAVE WASTE. I HAVE BEEN HERE 21 YEARS AND I COULD TELL YOU SOME STORIES AS I KNOW WAGONMASTER COULD BUT HE HAS DONE A LOT OF RESEARCH ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT SUBJECTS. ONE ONLY HAS TO READ HIS POSTS TO KNOW THIS. WHEN HE SPEAKS HE HAS HIS DUCKS IN A ROW
IF WE ALL WORK TOGETHER AND HELP EACH OTHER WE CAN GET A LOT MORE DONE THAN BY POINTING FINGERS
JIMBO
Edited by - JIMBO20 on 03/05/2002 4:49:57 PM |
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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 6:24:13 PM
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Jimbo,
I couldn't agree with you more. I didn't mean to point any fingers, I'm just concerned about needless wasting.
Joe is very right when he says my district is very inefficient. Equipment is just one spectrum of finances, operations is another, and trust me, we are very inefficient and wasteful. Hopefully with our new sup. things will get better.
Anyhow, while I disagree with the a/c, perhaps by other districts (like yours and Jimbo's) that are efficient in managment, you have extra money to spend on nicieties on that. So in that case, there is nothing is lost. Nonetheless, I feel the more money transportation can save, the more can go back into the classroom.
Didn't mean to point any fingers, that's just how I feel.
Here's something you can't copy: Don't copy my signatures!
http://www.geocities.com/jasonsbuspage |
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Waste of Money in Your District
