| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2011 : 08:46:18 AM
|
Something occurred to me the other day, while discussing with co-workers the 3-minute idle shutdown timers that have now been enabled on our buses.
I've heard from several sources that federal law prohibits school bus manufacturers from programming the engines to shut down when there's a malfunction, so that the bus won't stall in a dangerous situation. Therefore, they'll derate in a situation like low oil, hot temp, etc, but will still keep running.
So is it legal to program a school bus engine to shut off after 3 minutes of idling? Drivers have claimed that some buses have shut down after 3 minutes while stopped in traffic at a construction zone, while in gear with the parking brake released. |
|
|
tigger2
Advanced Member
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 11:06:32 AM
|
| Yes it is legal When the idle shutdown timer is enabled the eng warn (yellow) will start flashing before shutdown,if the throttle is ramped up it will override the timer and reset. it will also log an event marker in the case of a Caterpillar engine. |
 |
|
|
Schoolbus56
Senior Member
United States
128 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 2:03:27 PM
|
| Yes its legal, But It is not supposed to happen while the parking brake is released and the bus is in gear. |
wow. |
|
|
|
Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4559 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 2:11:44 PM
|
If it is First Student, are you sure the buses aren't just stalling out? haha
I can imagine you trying to do your job the right way, park your bus, do the FS approved student check, then try to get out there and get to the tranmission dipstick to check that before the bus dies and checkmate goes nuts, the managers parachute in from the ever-present black helecopter and fire you for not checking your bus since checkmate ratted you out.
Also...It must be great fun to work on a bus that shuts off every 3 minutes. |
|
|
|
bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 3:55:17 PM
|
The FS-required check on the IC CEs consists of: Park bus, log into Zonar handheld, select post-trip, scan vehicle ID tag, enter mileage, turn key off, turn to accessory, walk back, lift emergency door handle (must be done within 30 seconds), push reset button, and scan Zonar tag. And they tell us they want us to search for kids on the way back and completely ignore any of the child check systems until we're sure we've checked every seat.
And yes, I'm sure they're not stalling out, the check engine light flashes for 30 seconds before as tigger2 said. It's something we've learned to live with, but I loved the idea that a company-wide FS policy was in violation of federal law. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 07:01:18 AM
|
Even if this is against some federal law it shouldn't be. That is to say it should be up to the states to decide. The vast majority of what the feds are doing latly is contrary to the constitution.
I think it might be worth looking into if you were in a warm climate, But where it gets cold the bus should be allowed to warm up. Wonder if there is an ambient temp. sensor on the ones that shut down so they would stay running when it's below 35 degrees or so. |
Bryan |
|
|
|
78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 07:22:01 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
If it is First Student, are you sure the buses aren't just stalling out? haha
I can imagine you trying to do your job the right way, park your bus, do the FS approved student check, then try to get out there and get to the tranmission dipstick to check that before the bus dies and checkmate goes nuts,
FS wont let us open the hood when the engine is running. All fluids have to be checked with engine off.
Ours are all programmed to shut down after 5 minutes of not touching the gas or brake . Only when the outside temp is more than 32F.
This does not affect the child check system since the key is still turned to "run".
This is not illegal in Illinois, as long as it doesnt shut down below 32 F |
Robert B.
|
|
|
|
bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 10:14:38 AM
|
| Oh my god, an idling law that makes sense? You're kidding! In CT, the law is 3 minutes max if it's above 20. FS tells us that the company-wide policy is 3 minutes regardless of temp. Our buses have 3-minute shutdown timers, depending on the bus they may not activate until it's up to operating temp, or may be overridden by turning on the fast idle. Our 2 HDXs with EPA10 Cummins will shut down after 3 minutes even if it's zero degrees outside and inside unless you turn on the high idle. |
|
|
|
bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
|
|
08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 7:09:02 PM
|
| ^ Why's that? |
|
|
|
BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 07:09:49 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
You should always high idle any Cummins engine from 2007 emission-current anyway.
It would be nice if the Cummins engines would kick up to high idle automatically like the Internationals do. I never thought it was a good idea to high idle a bus right away, as the oil is still cold and thick. The Internationals start off at low idle, and when it is safe to do so, the computer automatically kicks them up to high idle until they are completely warmed up, and then they kick back down to normal idle. It really helps warm up the bus a lot faster. Yet another thing I miss about my IC. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 1:52:06 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision
You should always high idle any Cummins engine from 2007 emission-current anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by 08 Thomas EF
^ Why's that?
Cummins tells me this keeps the EGR from getting stuck. Something about cooling it better. He didn't elaborate. A flash update would be the easy fix to the automatic high idle. Where is that programmer? |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 3:41:36 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
A flash update would be the easy fix to the automatic high idle. Where is that programmer?
So it is possible to get the Cummins to go to high idle automatically? That would be real nice. My bus gets started in the morning before I get there, and I'm sure it would be blowing much better heat if it would automatically go to high idle. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
|
|
|
bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
|
|
DGallagher
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 02:33:53 AM
|
quote:
FS wont let us open the hood when the engine is running. All fluids have to be checked with engine off.
This is not true. There is no First Group or First Student policy that stops you from opening the hood while the engine is running.
Also as for the CCM if you did the update the system will become active after 10 mins of running. To solve this use you’re FOB to put it into maintenance mode or use the steps to do this. |
Edited by - DGallagher on 01/19/2011 02:43:33 AM |
|
|
|
78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 03:15:48 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by DGallagher
quote:
FS wont let us open the hood when the engine is running. All fluids have to be checked with engine off.
This is not true. There is no First Group or First Student policy that stops you from opening the hood while the engine is running.
Also as for the CCM if you did the update the system will become active after 10 mins of running. To solve this use you’re FOB to put it into maintenance mode or use the steps to do this.
At my location it is against company policy to open the hood of a bus while the engine is running. |
Robert B.
|
|
|
|
Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 04:07:23 AM
|
| Shouldn't electronic engines should be idled fast when cold? |
|
|
|
08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 5:10:12 PM
|
In my educated but unprofessional opinion, yes, but only after they've been running for a minute or two (or more, I'm not sure). When you first start a cold engine, the oil is thicker, and the thickness is more severe as the temperature drops (this is why they recommend thinner oil for things like ATVs, tractors, etc. for the wintertime). When the oil's thicker, it cannot flow as quickly as it should. High idling when first starting up in the cold would mean increased RPM but less oil flow, and, needless to say, less lubrication. I do believe that revving up the engine until it's up to temperature is a good thing, once you allow the oil to warm up and thin.
It was established above that, even when warm, Cumminses should be high-idled to prevent the EGR valve from sticking. |
Edited by - 08 Thomas EF on 01/19/2011 5:11:21 PM |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Programmed to shut down?
