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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
 Posted - 01/06/2011 : 11:15:01 AM
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Ok well our some of our IC CE series with the Maxxforce DT have to have the reprogram from international for Cooling System Fault Management (CSFM) program. Its supposidly there to help the dual EGR coolers from plugging up, the main problem we been having is once the reprogram is complete the buses will smoke and have a rough time running. Any one else having this problem?
In my opinion Int'l could have just used one big cooler with a DOC routed in series to keep the cooler from plugging up to burn off the soot before it hits the cooler! |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 02:26:29 AM
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| This whole issue is a real tough one. We are having a lot of problems with ours smoking periodically (I believe when in regen)and building oil in crankcases...and it seems to be worse since the cold weather...like maybe the in-cyl dosing is having to work really hard to get the regen temps up high enough to work. We have had a lot of problems with the egr coolers clogging and throwing codes too. The only good thing I see is that with the 2010 emissions MaxxForceDT's, they went with downstream dosing which should at least help my fuel in the oil problems. On the 2010 emissions buses, they did go with one big cooler too. Only a few of mine have the newest programming. |
Edited by - Bassman on 01/07/2011 02:34:24 AM |
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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 08:25:40 AM
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| I understand that the bus goes thru the passive regen while the drive is crusing down the road, but lately while the buses low idling in the lot will start spewing white smoke.. its not coolant because its such a distinct smell.. its fuel.. they dont have an off idle or a miss..its just confusing walking outside and seeing the buses filling the bus next to it with smoke! Arent the 07 DT's buses supposed to automatically raise their idle speed to keep this from happening? i noticed the last 3 i looked at never did that! |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 09:57:02 AM
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| I have had alot of driver complaints about idle smoke and odd smells at different times with the 08 and newer IC maxforce DT's no more after reprogram than before they were done. I also blamed this on a passive regen, i was also was told by dealer that if there was fuel dilution in oil it was a good possibility that the fuel pump was leaking into crankcase apparently they have had alot of issues with the pumps in this year range and up. although the 08's had afc's/recalls on the supply pumps i just had one come in monday with 3 inches extra oil in it and smoking at acceleration so fuel dilution or dosing may play a role in idle smoke? sounds like to me if you don't oil sample ya had better start. as far as idle goes, my 2008 and up buses have always had a rougher or seem to hunt more at idle since they were new, didn't seem any worse after reprogram. normally if they were my drivers would definitely have let me know. and isn't the smoke coming out of tail pipe suppose to be breathable air [ha-ha] with all the extra money we have to spend for emission standards? |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 11:52:01 AM
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This is going to sound goofy, but this is what I did on the one that we had doing the bad fuming thing at idle. If no other codes or symptoms are present, I would take that bus to your dealer and recommend that they check the DOC for clogging. The dealer can pull the DOC (a pain to do and sometimes things break when coming apart) without getting permission from tech central. When they get it apart, they will find that the screen on the front is clogged and then they file the claim with what they found. Tech central will tell them to send pictures and then them to blow out the DOC (in both directions). They will take it outside and fog the parking lot with black smoke when they blow it out. When they reinstall it, the bus will run well again (the restriction being eliminated). I believe this is especially happening now due to the cold weather and increased fuel being pumped into the system. Put the bus back into operation and your bad idle fume thing will be gone and the bus will be back to just smoking intermitently and building oil slowly. (this was our recent fume experience).
BTW, there is a dye test they can do to tell whether or not it is the fuel pump. From my experience, there are very few actual fuel pump leaks. This is something that the reps and dealers love to do because its an easy part to change, the vehicle is out of the bay quickly, and then you think you're fixed for 5,000 miles until the oil builds up again. Make them test it instead of replacing it and you will get to the truth quicker. |
Edited by - Bassman on 01/07/2011 11:56:43 AM |
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 3:05:56 PM
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It sounds like the first MaxxForce DTs have been pretty rough. Hopefully they'll have all the kinks worked out of the 2010 version.
Last month, my bus was out. My driver said that the emissions warning light was on and that the engine was going to shut down, so she had to get a spare bus. And we did have a cold spell around the time this happened. So it sounds like what Bassman described ^ is what happened to my bus, but I'll never know for sure.
How are the emissions systems different on the ISB-07? I haven't heard of the ISBs having any emissions-related issues. Or do they work the same way, just Cummins executed the plans better? |
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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 3:58:49 PM
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Well just got off the horn from the dealer.. one of our 29 passenger IC with the Maxxforce DT was on the way back from the dealership from having the idle problem on a different bus being fixed... About midway back the driver calls and says shes turning around and heading back.. Same problem, she said, the same thing is happening all over! about 3Hours later International calls us up and tells us our injector o-rings have let loose one more than 2 cylinders. Sadly enough he tells me this is happening everywhere and to just send them out as they come up...WOW talk about quality... only 35-40k on this engine!
I just want to tell int'l to save their time and money and just swap those int'l engines for some cummins! haha |
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Newman
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 4:47:40 PM
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| Are the EGR coolers themselves failing? |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 02:38:13 AM
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| Every now and then we get a cooler failure on a 07 Maxxforce DT but it's not that prevalent (nothing like the VT's). We are experiencing a good bit of clogging in the fins of the cooler which generates a low flow code in the EGR circuit. |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2011 : 04:55:55 AM
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| Out of 16 05 to 08's with DT's in the district i'm in only one of the 05's had the original cooler on it until 3wk's ago when it developed a lose of coolant and was changed out. the rest were changed out in warranty. I have an 08 that the coolers were replaced 1 yr ago in December and it was fine until 2wks ago back to dealer cooler leaking they tell me. so far my 2010 and up are ok but time will tell as the buses in my fleet get 30-45'000 miles per yr put on them. |
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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 3:17:56 PM
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| On The DT's, the coolers themselves arent failing.. they are just doing what the manufacture wants them to do(cool the incoming air)... the problem is, is that the exhaust going into the coolers isn't filtered(aka full of soot and particulates) so when the beer can effect goes into play the soot and part.'s all stick to the cooler object..the cooler itsself...then it clogs up! thats why i was asking why didn't they route the exhaust from just after DOC then into the coolers...that way the exhaust is filtered and ready to be cooled! As for the VT's... they actually fail.. the seals on the cooler let loose and just start dumping coolant right into the exhaust..If the Egr cooler is original you can bet it isn't far off from going bad! |
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Newman
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 4:12:26 PM
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| Have you thought of going with a A/M cooler? My 6.0 in my F250 failed and I upgraded to a Bullet Proof Diesel EGR cooler. |
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bcressey
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 4:48:03 PM
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It should really help when they increase the EGR rate, add another cooler and strain the cooling system more.
By the way folks it's mid January in my area and I have not heard a single complaint about SCR and cold weather operation. |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 8:05:45 PM
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What is the warranty on EGR coolers?
I have a district that I call on that had a failure on a 2007 with 52,000 miles. MFDT. Customer purchased the extended engine warranty.
Was refused warranty and charged close to 700 dollars. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 03:24:07 AM
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| ours are 5 years unlimited mileage and we've gone right to the limit. |
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slippert
Top Member
USA
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 04:15:10 AM
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| the coolers at our district have failed in the first 3yrs with 30,000 to 90,000 miles and you could see the red coolant in the exhaust side of the cooler only the one 05 lasted past the warranty period. i have yet to have one that was plugged. these were all inline 6 DT motors. they are in the 6-700 dollar range. but unless 07 bus above was was purchased early 06 and titled 07 would think it should have been warranty. i received 2 buses at the same time and vin's were sequential but the one was titled 2010 and other 2011 |
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dizell
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 04:34:18 AM
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| The coolers on our DT's that have failed have gone as far as over pressurizing the cooling system enough to blow up heater hoses or go the other way and take out the turbo.So far coolers getting plugged up hasn't been a probiem here.Looks like more fun commlng. |
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districtU46
Active Member
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 06:56:41 AM
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| Its confusing why you got denied the warranty claim on the EGR cooler(RichBusman) Our warranty plan is the 5yr on Powertrain...we've had 14 buses go for freebie work for our 07'-08' series and we've never encountered a time where they denied us! Its almost like the sign of death when you get the exhaust light with the exclaination point in it, next thought is how fast can you get it to the dealer to get it done! Also ours have all been failing in the 50K mile range, some have been earlier...around 25K...Wow kinda sad.... So now the Cooling system fault management update is supposed to keep the coolers from plugging...I just wonder how well the reprogramming is going to affect the life span of the new coolers? (IF at all) |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 07:12:58 AM
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I must be living right, we have never had an EGR cooler failure. Have 3 DTs, 2VTs, and 2 Maxx7s.
Knocking on wood as I type with other hand  |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Maxxforce DT (CSFM??)
