| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2010 : 07:54:49 AM
|
| With the skyrocketing prices of school bus replacements would a guy be better off going through an older bus and reconditioning it? The fuel economy is no better on the new ones anyway. Certified pre-owned school buses should be an option on the bids. Do you think the savings would enable corporations to hire another mechanic to do the work? There are people already going through medium duty trucks replacing the engine, trans, tires and paint. |
|
|
Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 08:22:09 AM
|
| With the deicing crap that they put on the roads we are at the point that the powertrain isn't much of a concern for us when considering the buses life. When we buy IC buses we don't even see the need to pay extra for the DT engine. I'll take a new air ride, air brake, 100 gallon fuel tank IC with a V8 over a DT version with hydraulic brakes, and 65 gallon tank any day. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 12/21/2010 08:29:47 AM |
 |
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 09:18:41 AM
|
| That is the sad part about it. The corrosion and rust really takes it's toll on an old bus. I just hate seeing all those good buses going to the melon fields because of age. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
Jake
Top Member
USA
3528 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 10:39:50 AM
|
Not from a mechanics standpoint, but I really do believe school districts could save TONS of money by buying reconditioned buses. I mean I could only imagine the money that districts could save, even buying a used $30,000 bus vs. a new one for almost $80-90,000.
I believe if more interest was poured into the program it could definitely turn out very well. Although you saw the public turnout when South Carolina decided to buy 73 used 13 year old buses from my school district.. |
|
|
|
Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 11:13:14 AM
|
| There was a reconditioned bus movement in the 80s as I recall. I knew of a few schools who overpaid for a worthless warranty, a shiny paint job and some new seat covers. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
|
|
|
matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 12:59:06 PM
|
I almost wonder if any of the school bus companies have ever considered offering the option to replaced the body only for a school bus. It doesn't matter much to them whether they use a new chassis, or an old one. Like everyone up above said, its the problem with rust that usually determines a buses lifespan.
I don't think it would be horribly expensive or much more labor intensive to install a new body, and even do a quick sandblast and repaint on the frame.
I think its a good money saving idea, even since a lot of these school buses never meet the half life of their chassis capabilities.
I think it would be more beneficial for smaller districts to avoid all the emissions equipment/expense too. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
Edited by - matts4290 on 12/21/2010 1:03:06 PM |
|
|
|
AmTran _Genesis
Active Member
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 1:23:50 PM
|
I think the buses look better from the 90's anyway.
Tweek the bodies, replace the engine/tranny, have better looking buses on the road. |
I love buses!
My site is
www.the-everything-board.proboards.com
Everyone welcome. |
|
|
|
matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 1:45:32 PM
|
I wouldn't replace the engines/trans unless it needed it. They really do go for a long time. If you were going to do that too, I would suggest buying a new bus, otherwise the only advantage is avoiding the newer emission requirements.
But I do agree that you could tweek the bodies, and change the spec's and you could easily have an older model bus with roof hatches, window exits, radios, etc. Non of the buses I rode as a kid had those spec's until the mid 90's. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
|
|
|
mastertech
Advanced Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 2:03:54 PM
|
Well I tell you if the factory lifted a finger to paint and undercoat the insides of the body panels and under the rub rails ,used a premium paint on the outside you would see bodies getting at least 5 more years out of them. Here in the salt belt a 5 year old bus is really a shame to look at .
It just sickens me to pull a rub rail/panel off and find it was bare metal or cheap primer from the factory. What would it really take to throw some paint on ? |
|
|
|
IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 2:49:41 PM
|
Up here in the rust belt the bodies are junk long before the drivetrain is worn out. We have a 14 year turnover on our bus fleet, longer on our Public Works fleet, and the ones we get rid of usually run well with DT466s, 10K- 18K front ends and Allisons but the crossmembers and dump bodies are disintregating.
We just got rid of a '96 bus, our last mechanical injection bus that ran as good as the day it was delivered and I'm sorry to see it go. We have two other mechanical DTs, a PW truck and a fire truck, whose days are numbered.
Such is life. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 12/21/2010 2:59:25 PM |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 05:44:25 AM
|
| When I started here 17 years ago the oldest driver in the bunch said that we used to replace the bodies. I guess they would just order them and have them shipped in on a truck and a bunch of them would get together on the weekend and change it. Sounds crazy to me but these things are costing 80-90k and we are getting junk. I don't know what a new body would cost but it is bound to be cheeper than a new bus by far. We don't have much rust issues down here in Southern Illinois though. |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 08:42:30 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
When I started here 17 years ago the oldest driver in the bunch said that we used to replace the bodies. I guess they would just order them and have them shipped in on a truck and a bunch of them would get together on the weekend and change it. Sounds crazy to me but these things are costing 80-90k and we are getting junk.
That must of been one old driver
1940s-50s maybe.
I have been here since 1978 and I have no knowledge of that ever being done. If it wasn't happening in the 70s or 80s when things were simple it sure isn't going to happen now.
|
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 09:22:49 AM
|
| School corps are extending the age limitations, why not fix up our old stuff. Just 10k would go a long way if you retain the same dependable powertrain. We could use the extra cash saved to buy tools, equipment, and hire more help. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 10:17:42 AM
|
I heard that "rebodies" used to be somewhat popular up until the 80s/early 90s. The owner of the company I used to work for told me they had a bus rebodied after it rolled over, and he heard of several other local companies doing it. They always sent the chassis to the body factory for mounting by the manufacturer, though, too much liability doing it in-house. I also remember seeing a picture posted on one of the photo sites a while ago of an 80s Chevy chassis under a Carpenter "Classic 2000" body.
The only downside is the paperwork, since the title goes by chassis date. Taxpayers don't want to see a bus on the road titled as 20 years old, even if it has a brand-new body with every modern safety feature. Most contracted operations have age limits between 5-10 years. Otherwise, it's a great idea, keep the old, reliable engines on the road, and replace the body after it rusts off the frame. |
|
|
|
RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 10:25:21 AM
|
Rebodying was somewhat common to see in the 80s and 90s. Carpenter was the biggest pusher of this, but all of the manufacturers pretty much offered it.
Corrosion is definitely the biggest issue right now in northern areas. I agree that painting behind the rubrails and the backs of panels would definitely help, but there is still the issue of moisture getting on the roof bows and salt on the floor crossmembers. If the highway departments didn't put down such ridiculous chemicals, we'd be in much better shape. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 11:05:45 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
When I started here 17 years ago the oldest driver in the bunch said that we used to replace the bodies. I guess they would just order them and have them shipped in on a truck and a bunch of them would get together on the weekend and change it. Sounds crazy to me but these things are costing 80-90k and we are getting junk.
That must of been one old driver
1940s-50s maybe.
I have been here since 1978 and I have no knowledge of that ever being done. If it wasn't happening in the 70s or 80s when things were simple it sure isn't going to happen now.
He would have started driving in about the 1950-1955 range. He graduated high school in '48 and started farming and driving a bus shortly after. He died a few months ago so I can not ask him what year it was they did that. I do know the guy that took care of the buses in that era though, he's about 90 and in good health. I think I'll try to remember to ask him the next time I run into him. |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2010 : 06:44:19 AM
|
| I have 3 temps that are 1994-1996 and the State police always mistake them for being 2002. If it were not for the side door and old style drivers controls, it would be hard to tell. Taxpayers would be thrilled to know we saved thousands by upgrading. We got our eye on some 1999-2000 TC2000 that still look and run super. I hope the boss buys them. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
NWCROWN
Advanced Member
USA
461 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2010 : 08:36:22 AM
|
Here in Washington it is not uncommon to see 20+ year old buses still in decent shape, and many districts will still use them on daily routes. However, even though these buses are in excellent condition for the age, the perception by the general public is that old buses are polluters and not as safe. That is why California is rapidly eliminating Crowns and Gilligs. And even here in Washington that is starting to occur, three of Longview's Crowns were replaced last year under a department of Ecology grant to purchase cleaner buses, but the stipulation was that the old bus be destroyed. The Thomas HDX replacements are fine buses for today, but they are not the tanks the Crowns were.
In our area, winters are relatively mild, and the use of salt is for the most part nonexistant, although Washington has begun using salt solutions in some mountain areas. Time will tell if this has an effect on anything. |
|
|
|
intec1172
Active Member
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2010 : 4:33:43 PM
|
| its a good idea to buy used as long as they are in good condition. in addition, a new powertrain could be used if everything else is ok. |
|
|
|
Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2010 : 11:33:04 PM
|
Body condition for us is the biggest issue. The bodies on the GM chassis have stood up very well on our rough roads due to the exceptional ride. We changed a failed engine in one at 300,000
kilometers. It was a $30,000 engine swap at a Cat shop. The pencil pushers across the steet gave us no end of greef over the decision to spend the money. We now have 160,000 kilometers on the new engine.
New buses are costing us about $95,000. The engine has long since paid for itself. Every kilometer we put on now is just gravy.
The buses without the GM chassis will not be considered for engine replacement due to harsh ride and resulting short body life. |
|
|
|
08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 09:44:10 AM
|
^ Wow, I've heard that GMs have a great ride, but I didn't imagine it would be that significant. I have to ride one of those things.  |
|
|
|
matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 10:30:53 AM
|
| I remember seeing a GM bus come to our shop once for tires. I noticed while looking under the back that the frame rails were significanly smaller than other chassis manufactures. Maybe thats why it has such a better ride. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
|
|
|
98TomFord
Top Member
USA
812 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 2:52:05 PM
|
Reboding was a very popular thing here in Ohio during the mid-1990's. Tons of rebodied Carpenters were a very common sight around NE Ohio. Thomas & Blue Bird weren't uncommon either.
Personally I feel it's cheaper to revamp an older bus and keep it on the road as long as you can compared to spending 100K's on new buses with all the new wiring problems and emissions crap. I know we rebodied one when I was just starting school and it ended up lasting us an other 16 years afterwards (it was a 1980 and rebodied in 1994).
Downfall to reboding now-a-days is that all three companies intergrate their body with their specific chassis which makes it almost impossible to do a rebody now. I'd like to see it happen again to extend chassis life since alot here in the rust belt don't make it to their projected time of use. But this will never happen again. It's a shame.
And I have to agree about the GM comment. The previous school I worked for had a very large amount of 1985 & 1990 GMC Carpenters and I have to say those buses drove and rode better then my 2009 C2 does (turn radius does not count lol). GM had that part of their chassis down pat very well. |
My Ford Can Turn On $50, Can Your Int? ~Ford Buses - Gems To The Eyes~ |
|
|
|
Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 10:22:10 PM
|
The difference in the GM ride is the tapered spring leaves front and rear. To control the body roll with the soft suspension, LARGE sway bars are used on both axles. The only thing I have found comparable
is air ride. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2010 : 09:28:54 AM
|
| ^I think a BB Vision is very compairable to the old GM Chassis. That being 93 through the end of production. |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2010 : 6:58:13 PM
|
| The bodies on our 07 and 08 Vision buses are shaking the screws and rivets loose due to harsh ride. |
|
|
|
matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2010 : 6:00:05 PM
|
| I think our 05' visions (both of our visions are 05's) have the worst ride of all the buses in our fleet. |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2010 : 08:48:44 AM
|
| I want to make an exception. 2003 AAFE with CAT C-7 VDO gauges and jack knife door...Should be scrapped! |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4559 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2010 : 10:19:59 AM
|
Ah, remember when a lot of us believed that spending the extra money to get the 3126/C7 was the right thing to do?  |
|
|
|
Jake
Top Member
USA
3528 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2011 : 12:34:50 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r
School corps are extending the age limitations, why not fix up our old stuff. Just 10k would go a long way if you retain the same dependable powertrain. We could use the extra cash saved to buy tools, equipment, and hire more help.
Does Indiana have a "fixed" age limit for buses? Just wondering. I haven't seen much stuff older than '93 running anymore when I go up and visit. |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2011 : 07:42:45 AM
|
| No you just have to get anything over 12 years inspected twice a year. The school corps used to cut off at 12 years now most have extended that. I still have some 1993 as temps GMCV with 3116 still running strong. Just don't forget to plug them in! |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
matts4290
Advanced Member
224 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 5:11:27 PM
|
I asked a friend about this, and this is what I gathered.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Indiana has to use buses for at least 12 years, and then they can be retired. The max age for them 20 years. Sound right? |
We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290 |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 06:24:42 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by matts4290
I asked a friend about this, and this is what I gathered.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Indiana has to use buses for at least 12 years, and then they can be retired. The max age for them 20 years. Sound right?
Yes I never heard of the 20 year cut off but that sounds legit. I know after 12 we get on the 2x a year list with the ISP. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 3:05:30 PM
|
| What's the reason for twice a year Wolf? Or maybe I should ask why they all aren't twice a year. Illinois is on a 6 month inspection rotation. Of course if Illinois is doing it, it's worth looking into doing just the oppisite as we are. Of course that is my opinion. |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2011 : 06:56:45 AM
|
| I don't know why twice a year. It's been that way for a while, I think it was started back when we were still running carburetor junk with stick shifts. We have a great fleet now and I don't see a need for twice a year. |
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
Wolf0r
Top Member
USA
2181 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
Powertrain Replace vs New Bus
